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Thread: After the first time through the lessons

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AuthorText


Posted: 2017-07-29 18:21
Just finished through the lessons for the first time at 20/5 (last characters are still weak though). Now combining ideas from "Reverse Koch" thread, working backward at 20/6 and forward through the lessons at 20/6. Thinking also of trying groups at 20/6 (like the ones mentioned in the army training manual mentioned in another thread). But to be still reviewing all the characters does it make sense to also be doing Lesson 40 at 20/5 to be getting the characters in the whole mix? Thank you all for your helpful ideas.


Posted: 2017-07-29 19:10
Helpful idea might be this:

It has no sense when you master all the characters with 20/5 to repeat all the lessons with 20/>5
>5 means 6, or seven or higher

Just keep exercising with lesson 40 not with lower numbered lessons.

BUT increase the speed according to the following list

When you finish the course with 20/5
exercise lesson 40 with the following speeds
(go over to the next line in the list when your score is >=90%),

20/5
19/5.1
18/5.21
17/5.39
16/5.56
15/5.79
14/6.06
13/6.41
12/6.86
11/7.50
10/8.44
9/9

You end up with 9/9 that is your present writing including reaction speed.

The effective speed indicated in the list above has to be rounded off, Start with the lower integer value, and when result is over 90% correct in some exercise: round the effective speed (the value after the slash in above table) to the first higher value ONLY when the decimal value is >.50. (Round upwards only in case effective speed is in decimal value > .50)

When that is over 90 percent correct take the next line of the list.

20/5 is only a proof that you are able to decode any learned Morse character character within 0.72 second.

That is pretty slow, when you are driving your car with 50 km per hour and a child is crossing your way 10 m in front of you, your car has traveled 10 meter BEFORE you start braking. So the child is hit with full original speed.


Posted: 2017-07-29 20:01
brushupCW:

It has no sense when you master all the characters with 20/5 to repeat all the lessons with 20/>5
>5 means 6, or seven or higher
. . SNIP . .


Why's that then ??

What's the advantage of listening to slower characters if you already can catch almost all of them at 20, even if is is with a long gap.

OK, one size won't suit all, in the end you have to work it out for yourself, so here's another view. . ..

Try 20/10 for a week and see how many letters you can read.

Try some mp3 files of common words at 20/20 ( a lot of the most common words are quite short ) and leave a slightly longer gap between words, so you remember the sound and then decode in your head.

Aim to concentrate of the first two letters to pick up on speed and tone to give you the timing for the rest of the word.

Try not to get in the habit of writing it all down or measuring your speed ALL the time.

Do short eg. 2 minute sessions at first.

If your hearing isn't as good as lucky old brushup's, then choose an audio frequency which suits your hearing - a hundred Hz might make a difference . .

I think you'll read better than you expect


enjoy anyway

cb




Posted: 2017-07-29 20:41
cb:
Why's that then ??

What's the advantage of listening to slower characters if you already can catch almost all of them at 20, even if is is with a long gap.



That is because you can catch all the characters with a gap and allowed reaction time of 0.72 s in lesson 40

It has no sense to start all the lessons 1 thru 40 over starting with the pair [K,M] with a smaller time gap between characters = higher effective speed and then postponing the last learned characters you had least exercised. So KEEP EXERCISING WITH LESSON 40; NOT lower.

cb:

OK, one size won't suit all, in the end you have to work it out for yourself, so here's another view. . ..


Right, but there are obviously wrong methods, and the purpose of the course here is to learn operational Morse code, that is N/N with N the speed in wpm, as fast as possible.

Going from 20/5 to 20/20 is the wrong method because it takes superfluous much time to operate at 20/20. In the mean time ANY operation in practice is allowed with MORSE CODE and that is N/N NOT N/M with N>M. So first go to 9/9 as goal, start operating and try to increase N from N/N starting with N=9wpm.



The correct intermediate step to real Morse code starting off with 20/5 is 9/9 as I gave proof of, and AFTER that you reached reliable copy with 9/9 you can start going up with real Morse code to N/N with N >9 and ALWAYS keeping N/N, this is keeping effective speed and character speed equal, because THAT is Morse code any other timing NOT. So AFTER you close the cap 20/5--> 9/9 you may start real practice with 9/9 and asking for QRS.

Beware of the guys that ask for QRS and can't copy 5/5 because they learned 30/5.



cb:


Try 20/10 for a week and see how many letters you can read.


I seriously disagree with this proposal

However I agree with the proposed experiment:
cb:

Try some mp3 files of common words at 20/20 ( a lot of the most common words are quite short ) and leave a slightly longer gap between words, so you remember the sound and then decode in your head.










Posted: 2017-07-29 21:44
brushupCW:

. . SNIP . .
It has no sense to start all the lessons 1 thru 40 over starting
. . SNIP . .


. . so much nonsense that no-one has suggested it - well, certainly not me anyway . .

brushupCW:

Going from 20/5 to 20/20 is the wrong method because it takes superfluous much time to operate at 20/20.


Why, where did this come from - what so good about 9/9 as a stepping stone.

It has the correct timings,
but
9wpm sounds completely different to 20wpm which sounds different to 35wpm etc

If you learned it that way brushup, then obviously you think it was a good way,
but
you are buzzing along at 40wpm ( which many people will never reach for one reason or another)
so
I guess you would reach that speed in the same time-span, whatever way you learned . . . good or bad.

I'm not so convinced that advise from high speed ops is much help to people who will struggle at 20+ wpm

. . course ,we don't know how much aptitude the OP posesses, so he/she will have to work it out.

brushupCW:

I seriously disagree with this proposal


??? - oh, 20/10 maybe; but so much disagreement ??

brushupCW:

However I agree with the proposed experiment:


What about the :-

. . . just listen - stop writing things down all the time, stop testing your speed all the time . . .

bit. ???

Your mate Pierpont seems to agree with that . .

http://n1su.com/c07.htm

Chapter 7 - Listening or "Reading"

cb


Posted: 2017-07-30 22:45
I agree to Chris' method
Keep going with lession 40 and reduce the gaps: 20/6..20/7..20/8..20/9 and so on. Later it makes sense, to increase the letter speed: 22-23-24.

Analyze your results for a weakness. Concentrate on this letter. My weak letters have a lot of dits, i mix up H and 5, 6 and b, 4 and v.

In the beginning you have to listen, decoding and writing down at the same time. Once you manage this kind of multitasking, it will get easier.

When you reach ~20/12, then switch on your receiver or listen to one of the www.websdr.org. Try to copy at least one slow QSO either around 7030kHz or 3555...3565kHz each evening. Write down the call signs, rst and as much as you can get by using your keyboard or a pencil. Try to get familar with the abbreviations.


Posted: 2017-07-31 23:11
Thank you guys, BrushupCW, cb and smiley46. You have all been helpful.

BrushupCw, thank you for clear and detailed instructions of how to get to an operational speed. 20wpm might not be something I can get to, but going down to what I can do and working with that and up from there makes sense to me. I like the idea of also being able to drop speed to communicate with others operating there.

Thanks Cb, I was able to get an mp3 player, when you mentioned it before, and using it has helped, so listening to frequently used words, and some higher speed code I'm sure will help too.

Thanks smiley46, similar weak letters for me, dits.

The going back through the lessons was mentioned somewhere in the forum. We all agree that makes no sense. Characters are left unpracticed. Crazy

Thanks again for your help, all of you.


Posted: 2017-08-01 18:05
How dropping character speed is going so far, in case this helps someone else. 19 sounds better, 18 also, 17 a little different and now 16 some adjustment to how it sounds, but this I can hear without the straining and tension in my neck. So far this is better for me.


Posted: 2017-08-01 18:54
OK, you are on the right way.


Posted: 2017-08-04 18:01
Continuing to go well. Working on 11/7 now. Gap has closed from 20/5. Two more steps to get to 9/9. We will see how going back up goes.


Posted: 2017-08-04 18:10
next step 11/8

AFTER you reach 9/9 and copy it over 90% correct go to
http://www.arrl.org/10-wpm-code-archive

char speed is there 15 wpm. but SPACING (6.4 wpm) STILL TOO WIDE, (15/6)
So that will be easy when you are proficient at 9/9 Do it a few days to get aquainted with that website that give you also the opportunity to record MP3 files and to show the transmitted text.

After some time proceed to http://www.arrl.org/13-wpm-code-archive. Spacing is there 14,86/10.33

Just like G4FAD adviced: write down and try at the the same time while writing to read in your head. That is: know what the meaning it while you are writing.

With codegroups impossible (has no meaning) but with the ARRL link it is plain text.


Posted: 2017-08-06 00:43
My experience has been a little different. I finished the 40 lessons at 25/5 and couldn't go much faster. I felt stuck, and stupid. Why was everyone else having an easier time? Starting the lessons over at 30/7 got my brain to "copy behind" the letters. Meaning, that's what it took for me to finally stop the 'hear one letter, type one letter' behavior that was slowing me down. I can now hear a couple letters out and type them down at a pace that is more practical. With more practice, I can envision copying several letters behind.

I am now working through the lessons again at 30/7. I am also practicing plain text at 9/9 to keep it fun.

I am having an especially difficult time learning. I joke that I must have some kind of "audible dyslexia." Perhaps your experience will be more enjoyable than mine.

73 de N2OW


Posted: 2017-08-06 13:09
ryans:

. . . SNIP . . .
I am having an especially difficult time learning.


You probably aren't.

You are just believing the people who learned easily about how long it takes.

Most people get disheartened and give up ( for one reason or another - boredom - I thought it would be easy - its not worth this effort etc )

Also, this means that there is an "invisible" filter in action, in that you mostly hear from people who are very good at morse,
so
you will get lots of advise from people who are not like you . . .

ryans:

I joke that I must have some kind of "audible dyslexia." Perhaps your experience will be more enjoyable than mine.

73 de N2OW



Did you buy a cheap mp3 player and some morse files so you can listen in the queue/garden/car/plane etc ??? ( headphones are good )

Try some different audio frequencies in case your hearing hasn't got a flat response.

Actually, you can't help but learn it if you can hear it properly . . .

Try some different speeds too - you have to work out what works for you . . .

( try to ) enjoy ;) and don't give up

cb


Posted: 2017-08-06 14:03
N2OW

cb is right. Take his advice.

However some remarks.
The character speed high is solely for getting the sound of a character, not separate dashes and dots. The effective speed /5 is indicating the pause between characters.

So when you go over from 25/5 to 30/7, you have the same learning load as from 25/5 to 25/7

The problem is NOT the first number (20,25,30)
but the second one after the slash (5 or 7)

I read in a recent thread here the advice to go to real Morse code as fast as possible by lowering the 25/ and increasing the /5
Hence NOT by increasing the 25 to 30.

Closing the cap from 25/5 (or even 30/5) to 25/25 (or even 30/30) will take so much time that you get frustrated and give up. I estimate that only a few percent of hams are able to copy reliable 30/30 That is not the way to go on. So go down with your 25 speed.

When you experience that that sounds completely different, as cb suggested, conclude that real Morse code sounds completely different. Personally I can't hear it, can't have it, it feels like a saw rasping my ears, the rithm is completely different, the sound never flows in my mind, but feels bad. Very bad.

Look at your reaction time /5 now and go down from 25 lower and lower. There is a table published in this forum, produced by a guy that obviously masters math. Then you end up with real usable Morse code as fast as possible.

After that you can try to increase your speed if you like. Some are glad with 12 some with the average 15 Only diehards are proficient above 20. There is even a specual club the High speed club for people proficient from 25 wpm.



Posted: 2017-08-06 16:24
brushupCW:
Helpful idea might be this:


BUT increase the speed according to the following list

When you finish the course with 20/5
exercise lesson 40 with the following speeds
(go over to the next line in the list when your score is >=90%),

20/5
19/5.1
18/5.21
17/5.39
16/5.56
15/5.79
14/6.06
13/6.41
12/6.86
11/7.50
10/8.44
9/9

You end up with 9/9 that is your present writing including reaction speed.


I think this is a good suggestion. It solves two problems; first is being able to copy code slower than 20wpm and second being able to copy code at n/n sooner than trying to be proficent at 20/20.



Posted: 2017-08-07 18:39
Quoting ryans - "I am also practicing plain text at 9/9 to keep it fun"

There it is. 9/9 is fun. I agree with cb "enjoy it". If it's fun we'll do more and progress quicker. Word Practice and Call Sign training you can do at a fixed speed. You might like those for variety, setting it at 9/9 for warm up and then 10/10. And increasing that way, at real morse timing.

When we learned typing in school many years ago, we typed slowly while learning and then over time the speed picks up naturally with use, and now you just do it automatically not thinking about letters.

In another thread I've seen that learning this is about perseverance. That goes with what cb said "don't give up".

Quoting ryans - "I'm having an especially difficult time learning".

I was too at 20/5. Absolutely the hardest thing I have ever tried to learn. I would think to myself "I can't believe people can hear this." Every letter was a new goal and hard. But when I was dropping the speed and got to 16, I could hear it.

Just one more thing you might want to look at that was mentioned in another thread is a free pdf version of a book "The Art and Skill of Radiotelegraphy." by Willaim Pierpont. The gist of what I've read so far is to first get accuracy and then speed.

Hope enjoyment comes soon for you.

The mp3 player has been a GREAT help (thanks cb). When going through the lessons I made files of the most recent 5 letters I was learning (somestimes 4 and the one coming up next, to start listening to it). Example kkkkk mmmmm uuuuu rrrrr eeeee (repeat to make a file about 5 minutes. Now have started listening to the ARRL 10wpm files and seeing what I can hear.



Posted: 2017-08-07 21:02
The other possibility is to simply do 8/8, 9/9, 10/10 etc. and work your way up.

There is no scientific proof about Farnsworth & Koch.

GL


Posted: 2017-08-10 01:05
I'm working on that plan now. Wonder if anyone else has tried it.

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