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BD7LLY bi7mps claubrun cnmcn DJ5AS dk4rh ekaterina1 HB9CAC Hikosan iz2wya JP1TMC KD2EAQ kureya Marcen16 mori0001 NZ8M OE1EKG OH3FRX rlg SalvaJ test tom3 Turbichev turgun ykom3

I'm at 22wpm char, 10wpm eff, random group length, on lesson 9. I found that I was getting too attached to the physical location of letters on the keyboard, which was a little helpful (m, and its lesser linguistic and CW almost-m on the left, n), but mostly an association that seemed unhelpful to build. I decided to switch to paper copy and then transcribing it.

I type all day for my job so switching to writing (which I don't particularly like -- I have chicken scratch and a slow hand) has been an adjustment for my timing, but I'm climbing back up.

When I was typing, being able to do a certain lesson four or five times at 100% was my indicator to move on, but now that I'm writing, I'm finding myself struggling with the extra mental load a bit and missing a letter, getting caught thinking longer than I should, then missing another one or two because of that, then dropping another because I'm flustered and finally shake it off to get ready for the next group, wincing as I hear the tones go by that I'm not focusing on because I'm trying to clear my head (I'm an engineer; watching mistakes go by hurts ;). I'm making peace with just dropping letters that aren't instant and treating an inability to do that well as an indicator that I'm not ready to move on.

Does this seem like a reasonable approach? Now, when I'm staying on a lesson, it's usually do to chunks or occasional brain glitches; I've got not problem with the letters in terms of not remembering which is which (although right now T and E are such a pain lol).

Should I stay on a lesson until I'm not dropping chunks due to brain glitches? Or only be using lessons to punch in that single letter and moving on once I can recognize it reliably, and deal with my brain's desire to stop and fix errors as I progress through future lessons?

Possibly worth noting that I can copy with 100% accuracy consistently if I bring my eff speed down to about 8wpm, but I feel like this is an important lesson to learn (CW QSOs aren't gonna be babying me with farnsworth spacing!) and my gut says to keep at the challenge until I resolve this issue.

Thanks for thoughts!

73,
K9JWK

Oh, and to clarify, it's not consistent letters that cause me to drop blocks; it's just that my brain's running at max speed for my skill level and sometimes it backs up. If it was only particular letters, obviously I'd focus on drilling those.

Hi

You need to learn todecode so that the letter appears in your mind - which you then type in
rather than
hear morse -> it's that key, which is what can easily happen and will leave you needing a keyboard all the time.


If you miss a letter then move on. You are probably re-learning the morse-to-key-press reaction and so have dropped back a bit.


If the missing letters happens too much, then slow down by increasing the gap between chars, or if you can remember the morse and decode a letter behind whilst still listening ( which process is VG if you can do it), the gap between words.


It sounds to me like you are getting a bit overloaded or fatigued in your decoding . . .

It's a bit of a heavier a workload to decode to letter than just the morse -> key-press automatic reaction

If you were becoming a military operator it would be fine because you would be typing in encoded gobbledegook and not be concerned with what it means


Possibly you are better going slower in case you are relearning. Is is likely better to drop back a bit and learn it correctly, than go too quickly and stall in a few lesson's time.



You learn by repeat decoding - so that the char pops into your head somehow as if from no-where.

This is done by lots of repetition - not tricks to speed things up . . .


22/10 sounds good if you can manage it.


YMMV

good luck

let s know how you are getting on anyway

CB

The danger, when sticking to 22/10 is that you give up, due to disappointment, and hence wasted your time, because an incomplete set of characters can't be used.

So my advice is to lower the "effective speed" in your case 10 wpm, slowly with the increaseing of the lesson number till you reach lesson 40 with at least effective speed 5 wpm.

That solves your writing problem and shortens the time you need to complete the character set of 41 characters. Write long hand lower case characters.
NOT the military compulsory way, that was designed to prevent error-reading by the decription dept.

Because that military way limits your max writing speed seriously.

After reaching lesson 40 with 22/5 you have to go on with lesson 40 narrowing the character spacing,
till 9/9, hence lowering character speed and decreasing at the same time character spacing in little steps.

When that is done you are proficient enough to go on air, or you may advance with lessen 40 only, to go on exercising with n/n with n>9 ; n a natural number (integer).

Use fixed length code groups 5 long.

Thanks for all the advice! I'm not too worried about getting discouraged, but I'll definitely drop the spacing a bit to pick up my forward momentum through the lessons a bit.

Noted on the long hand; I usually write in all caps but will try lowercase.

What makes you suggest fixed code length? I assumed random length would be most helpful/real-world-like.

With random length you lose a bunch of characters, like you said. Random length code has hardly sense for learning compared to fix length 5.
In plain English text instead of code groups the decoding is kind of different, you recognise words during reception of part of it.

With caps you possibly are limited to 17 wpm writing speed.
You may try it out, read https://lcwo.net/forum/2696

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I use my phone to practice on LCWO and was using pen and paper to copy QSOs. One day, I decided to just use my phone because I left my only good pen at work. I haven't gone back since. I still log contacts on paper but the QSO is all on my phone. I would assume the same rule applies if you're a keyboard expert, which I am not. Hope that helps.

I'm very much a beginner, but I wonder if using speech to text/dictation software could be useful here, and just saying the characters out loud (maybe using the keyboard only for spaces)

That ought to eliminate any unwanted associations, and while I can't say for sure how effective it is, I reckon it's at least worth a shot!

Even don't speak the character but just know it, remember it to glue it to the next character in your mind, and you are all sat.

Start with short plain text words, possible on this site from lesson 9 upwards.

Let the fraternity here know how it works out.

Your experiment will be very valuable, because everybody has only one chance to start and learn Morse code, so very interesting experiment and keep us regularly informed abt ur progress.

You'll never get to the magic "the letter appears in your mind" moment if you stay at 10 wpm effective. I am at 20/18 and still haven't reached that stage. You need at the very least 25 wpm effective. Advising struggling learners to even slow down is criminal. It's like telling an athlete to train less when they're too far from their target.

But this is the kind of poor advice you get from users we know nothing about because they don't make their profile public.

Now this is a very good point and I asked myself the same question. It looks like you're at 40 wpm so this may work.

This is possibly true, but most people asking for advice posting in this forum are some way from that happening - if ever it does,
and some people , whatever they do can't get above 15-20wpm see https://youtu.be/HPwxgH-BE10?t=409


There is a self selection filter operating on OPs asking for advice.

Lots of these OPs have stalled due to going faster through the lessons than they can really manage.

They will give up if they don't start making progress . .

so

We advise slowing down until they are making some progress. Maybe you have a better idea. Great - lets hear it . . .



"Slow down" and "train less" are not the same.

Too fast means no decoding - so no practice decoding.

Once you hit "lesson" 40 you can speed up - but you can't do that if you give up at "lesson 10".


I've been watching this in this forum for 11 years.


It is heartbreaking to see people expecting to learn morse in a few weeks and getting to lesson 10-15 or so and finding that nothing sunk in.

Some of these people have total dedication, but too fast is a waste of time.


You may as well tell your trainee athletes to run at 20mph ONLY or lift only 495lbs - and see how they do . . .





Everyone has to make their own decision. We know nothing about the OPs, sometimes they probably tell us the wrong thing about what they are doing.

All we can give is general advise along the lines of :-
Keep making progress or you will give up.
Do whatever it takes. If 25/25 is too fast then slow down etc
Don't maintain aspirations beyond your aptitude ( aptitude is the most significant factor in learning morse )

Probably these candidates are looking at a couple of year's work to learn morse, but if they don't give up AND make progress they will get there and then speed up etc

Getting to "lesson" 10 and finding you now can't get the first few chars any more is likely not because you are going too slowly.



You can advise them to speed up instead if they are making no progress. That might well suits a few people. They can try and then decide . .



How are your Skeds with nonag going ? Maybe some positive news for us to read for a change ?

CB

CB- Not just in this forum but anyone can give up when they can't overcome an obstacle. I tried learning CW twice before and could send 20wpm all day but couldn't copy at any speed. I couldn't figure out why I knew the characters but didn't know what I was hearing coming back to me.

Finally, a few months ago I started with focusing on hearing the characters and working on instant recognition. I already knew I could send so why try that method a third time just to flop? I discovered this platform as well as others to get me to where I am now comfortable having a 12-15wpm ragchew. Is this a case for all? Absolutely not, but I'm proving it can be done. Everyone learns in a different way and I'm no different.

I have a friend that can copy 20wpm plus but as soon as he hits the key he's brain dumped everything and ends up not getting past sending his callsign. I think it's key freight but the only way to get through it is to do it.

I started transmitting in late November and I now have over 100 QSOs on air and it's because of this platform and other free platforms, as well as getting on the air. Do I make mistakes? Do I have completely blank moments where I keep sending BT because I'm mentally stuck? YES! So does everyone else so quit worrying about it.

None of that even matters if the most important element is absent. You have to want it. If you don't want something bad enough to get past your hurdles and insecurities then you're going to fold at the first obstacle.

I hope everyone had a great holiday. If learning CW is part of your New Year's Resolution then I wish you all the best in your pursuit. I'm no expert and will never claim to be one but what I'm doing is working for me. Is it THE way? No, but it's A way. 73

Hi Richard

That'll do as good news for a change . . .

We know lots of other people are succeeding, but I suppose no-one wants to say.

What happened to you seems to happen to a good 60% of people who start morse - maybe 90%+ . . give up because it seems a waste of time.

Quite a few come back for another attempt though.

A lot of it is people expecting it to be easy, but 25wpm is the professional's speed.

So how good would you expect to be if you tried other competing with other "aptitude professions", gymnast, musician, singer, ralley car driver, mathematician etc ?

CB

CB- Many professional race car drivers started out in racing karts. All gymnast professionals started out on the playground. Could I or anyone be great at something if they try? I don't see why not as long as they want it bad enough.

I do feel like I'm lucky enough having this platform and other free help in this age of technology. I didn't spend a dime on classes or clubs. I'm not trying to discredit any of them. I'm sure they're all great and some people need to pay someone to motivate them and that's fine. I'm just good at self-motivating myself.

It really helps when you start to see progress and it justifies all the work you put in, proving it's not a waste of time. I'm really enjoying CW and probably won't be doing much else considering how much fun it is. It also gives my friends and coworkers something to poke fun at.

Something interesting happened today. I had a nice ragchew with an old ham and he was about 16-17wpm. I didn't want to have that speed but I forced myself to continue and copied all but a few letters here and there. QSB eventually forced its end but I felt comfortable enough to continue all day. I only wish I could share the joy I had after realizing what I've accomplished.

The only way through it is to do it.

Hope to hear you on the bands someday. 73

Rich KN6HTH

Thank you all for the advice on this topic.

I first started on this site a few weeks ago at 20 (character) / 15 (effective) WPM, but found once I reached lesson 21, I was still visualizing the dits and dahs instead of hearing the character as a whole sound. I also focused on individual letters and missed whole blocks of incoming code.

At lesson 21, I was getting stuck at 20 / 10 (effective) WPM. I could copy at 20 / 8 WPM, however, I was still getting stuck.

Then I read about the about the 10WPM plateau in an article by David Finley, N1IRZ: https://www.aa9pw.com/morsecode/so-you-want-to-learn-morse-code/

To avoid getting stuck under the 10 WPM plateau, I restarted with lesson one, at 25 (character speed) / 15 (effective speed) WPM and that helped a lot. The higher speed forced me to relearn the code as sounds and not individual elements. Now I don't necessarily hear the separate character elements, and can better reflexively type the letter online.

Sometimes, I had to focus on two new letters at a time. I used the custom characters under account settings to select troublesome characters, and then used code groups to practice those letters alone. That separate practice helped tremendously with troublesome characters.

I'm now at lesson 15 and having good success after a week at the higher speed. I had to slow down a little to 25 / 12 WPM, however, I'm still focusing on hearing the sound and not visualizing it.

It feels great to instantly recognize some letters when watching others make QSOs on Youtube. It's great motivation. :-)

No matter what speed you learn CW, do not give up, even if it means using a slower or faster speed. Whatever works for you is the key.

Thank you all for your advice. I can't wait to be using CW on the air in the future.
73
Ron

Ron-

Congrats on your success. You may not think you're ready yet but you absolutely are ready so get on the air. Everything else will come with time. I've had many QSOs at 12wpm.

The other day I had my paddle set a little too fast just testing out the keyer and someone answered me. Rather than ask for QRS, I continued the QSO at about 16-17wpm and had a great ragchew. If I didn't have that little 'push' then I'd probably still be at 12wpm because I didn't think I was ready for that.

Hope to hear you on the bands. 73

Ron-

Congrats on your success. You may not think you're ready yet but you absolutely are ready so get on the air. Everything else will come with time. I've had many QSOs at 12wpm.

The other day I had my paddle set a little too fast just testing out the keyer and someone answered me. Rather than ask for QRS, I continued the QSO at about 16-17wpm and had a great ragchew. If I didn't have that little 'push' then I'd probably still be at 12wpm because I didn't think I was ready for that.

Hope to hear you on the bands. 73

Ron-

Congrats on your success. You may not think you're ready yet but you absolutely are ready so get on the air. Everything else will come with time. I've had many QSOs at 12wpm.

The other day I had my paddle set a little too fast just testing out the keyer and someone answered me. Rather than ask for QRS, I continued the QSO at about 16-17wpm and had a great ragchew. If I didn't have that little 'push' then I'd probably still be at 12wpm because I didn't think I was ready for that.

Hope to hear you on the bands. 73

Thank you Richard! I still have a lot of characters to learn, but I'm looking forward to the day to hearing you on the air too. I sometimes amaze myself when I do very well on a test online and can't wait for my first ragchew.

73

oc -



This is the worst statement I've found on this Forum so far. But keep trying, dear OP...

When people hit the wall and cannot make progress anymore, they're bound to give up sooner or later. Some after two weeks, others after two months. This is inevitable unless... Unless they change something so that they start making slow progress again. Any change is good, if it helps in progressing towards the current primary goal.

I am changing the "CW settings" every now and then depending on the problems I encounter. After learning all the Koch characters, I set my new primary goal at developing my memory buffer for whole words and groups. My strategy right now is keeping CSpeed=ESpeed rather low and the group size rather short, and increasing the time between groups until I can copy with reasonable accuracy. Then I am pretty careful with increasing the demands on my brain because I am no stranger to quitting. When I increase the group size, I have to reduce the WPMs and increase the time between groups. Otherwise my brain gets overloaded and refuses to work, and I hit the wall again. So... I take it easy this time.

I think the one OP was suggesting that if you do not operate at a high WPM rate, never mind the effective speed, because you will still be counting dits and dahs, which is very detrimental to progressing beyond just a few words per minute copy. The character rate needs to be at about 25 to 28 WPM for most people to "hear" the sound of the letter and not be able to count dits and dahs. Whatever farnsworth effective speed you need to be at to "push" yourself is where you should be. If you are getting frustrated, drop back a little until you are comfortable, and then push back up into the "learning zone". That is where you are only getting 50-60% correct letters. When your brain is comfortable, you are not learning optimally.

I made the mistake early on, of learning the "code" before being able to instantly recognize the sound of the letter or character. IMO one of the worst mistakes a new CW op can make. After a couple of years I decided to start over and learn the sound of the letters at a high character rate. (28-30wpm) While I still don't have instant character recognition for all the letters, I found that it let me get over the 8-9 wpm copy hump. Learn the letters at a high rate first, and then practice them at slower speeds so that you can work with folks who operate at slower speeds.

I found that, rather than reducing speed, reducing the word length (in CW settings) improves performance. I can copy up to 34 wpm effective if I reduce the word length to 4 characters. Otherwise I struggle at 20 wpm.

No, no, no.
You've all got it wrong.
Except for Richard Venegas. Who comes out to be darn right.
I see once and again on this forum which I read in silence, never answering, that many of you stumble and fall at a certain stage of LESSONS 1/40. Quit them, them! Set-up a considerable speed, not understanding a word for months on end, keep to it and, as Mr. Venegas puts it, keep on going, non stop, until you master it. You want to get there? Well just carry-on, churning and winding yourself through, never giving-up... Until you finally get there. Some in two months' time, some in two years' time. Does it matter much?
All the lessons you give out to beginners on this forum are needless, pointless and empty. If a beginner wants to master CW, tell him to sit-down, get at it, never stop and he will eventually arrive.
Thanks, Mr. Venegas, for clearing-up this dark question which keeps arising over and over again. Signed: An admirer.

"When people hit the wall and cannot make progress anymore, they're bound to give up sooner or later. Some after two weeks, others after two months. This is inevitable unless... Unless they change something so that they start making slow progress again. Any change is good, if it helps in progressing towards the current primary goal."----
Greg 7650 - Grzegorz
Certainly, this is one of the finest statements that has been published in the forum.

However, it can also be matched with another as follows:

"Many professional race car drivers started out in racing karts. All gymnast professionals started out on the playground. Could I or anyone be great at something if they try? I don't see why not as long as they want it bad enough."---RichardHTH - Richard Venegas

It seems unreasonable to me, when there are so many differences in people, for there to be proposals that learning should be either 1 way, or no way at all.

Moreover, it is interesting to learn that there are members who withhold comments and operate as silent members. Perhaps it suggests that by the communications, some members are discouraged from messaging. In fact, it may suggest that some avoid posting information for the reason of a perceived hostile environment.

There was a movie I saw recently about a
"slow-learner" type who became a driving force in his field of endeavor.
(Brandon Burlsworth, All AMERICAN offensive lineman for the Arkansas "Razorbacks")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Burlsworth

The movie about his rise is titled "Greater".
Here is a clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8tjg15wx8

Brandon Burlsworth
September 20, 1976 – April 28, 1999)

Here is a biographical piece on video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qw_wuOe-Rg

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+rose&view=detail&mid=D37A896D783C0455ADA1D37A896D783C0455ADA1&FORM=VIRE

Yup, this seems to be very true in almost any forum.


CB

I agree. If one hits the wall at the stage of learning new characters, there are four ways out:

1. Increase space between groups ("Extra Word Spacing" in the settings).
2. Reduce group size.
3. Reduce "Effective Speed."
4. Reduce "Character Speed."

I listed them in my current order of preference. None of them is highly desirable because you get used to each of them quickly. There is also this nasty "dot counting" habit one acquires at low Character Speeds, which can be very deep and detrimental. But each of them is better than quitting before learning all characters.

I had been using very short groups (even 2 characters only) for some time. My performance was great, but now I have very hard time increasing the size. Longer group size (usually combined with some "Extra Word Spacing" and lower speeds) trains the skill of decoding with delay while listening to new incoming characters, which is useful later in learning head copy. But not at the beginner stage of learning individual characters, especially when someone encounters big difficulties. In such a situation any solution that keeps one learning is good, IMO.

BTW:
It seems like the initiator of this Thread (K9JWK) gave up. I've seen him stuck on lesson 16 for quite some time. Too bad our advice did't help. Happens much too often.

Greg, as someone who is generally reading the forum not posting (aka lurker), your insight is valuable and helpful to me, even if OP gives up. And who knows, maybe OP is just taking a break. :D

Thank you Windsor!

When learning music, sometimes a useful technique is counter-intuitive - go even faster…. Try a few sessions at an uncomfortably fast speed. Then come back to your original speed, and hopefully it will feel easier. Everyone’s brain is different, so keep trying different things. I think the main thing is to find ways to practise that you actually enjoy!

There is a good point also Jon.
Of course, it can also be an obstacle to be comparing myself to all other people. Others may just have an innate skill. So I have to struggle along. Everything is a little easier to do when some enjoyment can be found in it. An activity can be thought of as a kind of "play" rather than a kind of 'work".
There can be a difference in an activity when a person is all "tensed up" like it is some kind of burden. When it is something that is free of tension, practice with CW can be thought of as a way to relax.
In some activities, people have on occasion made mention of a kind of Neutral State of mind and feeling about an activity. That approach is associated with feeling calm, as though the practise is sort of something that a person is "just doing". They call that The ZEROETH STATE.

It can help to take the pressure out of something because one thing known about people generally is that we have a terrific ability to just Beat--Ourselves---Up.
I remember at one point, thinking about how my and hearing might be developing some new skill like being able to sense TONES in a way that I had not done before.

That "zeroeth" state you mention sounds like what I would call "flow state". It is like a trance, and I think often experienced by musicians and other artists.

As an amateur musician myself, I find sending Morse with a straight key good fun, and forming letters and words without looking at a text actually helps with head-copying.

This seems to be true for me. I noticed that I can do much better when I don't really care whether I make mistakes or not. And when I take deep breaths between those damn 5-character groups. :)

"That "zeroeth" state you mention sounds like what I would call "flow state". It is like a trance, and I think often experienced by musicians and other artists."---Jon

That was interesting Jon. I have never thought of that "flow" state as something that musicians as a specific group, were persons having that experience of relaxed or transcendent feeling.
I can tell you that this "flow" feeling may be exactly what I feel when listening to a fine piece of music like Stephen Barber's
"Adagio For Strings"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3MHeNt6Yjs

Thanks for that particular bit of input on the subject.

original post Posted: 2022-12-20
lesson 9

today: 2023-03-04
lesson 16 ?

73 Rüdiger DD5RK