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LCWO Discussion Forum [Atom LCWO Forum Feed]

This is a simple discussion forum for LCWO users. Feel free to use it for any kind of discussion related to this website.

Thread: delayed learning progress

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AuthorText


Posted: 2020-06-29 13:35
I greet everyone.
I have repeatedly shared my problems and successes and thank you for your responsiveness.
Now I will face a new difficulty and will be glad to any advice.
I completely stopped improving. And even more so, it began to noticeably worsen.
About 15 days I work at a speed of 20/16 (symbol speed / effective speed) and after some success during the first 3-5 days I started to get worse. After a few days of training, my results only get worse. It turns out that after two weeks of daily training, the results have become worse than at the beginning.
At the same time, I also train a lot of “call sign” exercises and “word” with a full character set and these exercises are slowly but noticeably improving.
Is there any suggestion that this could be?


Posted: 2020-06-30 00:13
Suppose you are exercising running.
When you run too fast too often you get wounded in your feet.
When you proceed with wounded feet you become slower and slower.
So take a period (14 days) off.


Posted: 2020-06-30 09:50
Very good advice from nonagenarian.

It is important to schedule "off" periods at least a day a week sometimes a couple days to foster the transition from short-term to long-term memory. I find that a day or two off, from time to time, makes a very big difference for the better in my personal performance.

When I was studying intensive Chinese in a total-immersion DoD/Princeton University program in the US in the late 80s, we were strongly discouraged from hitting the books on the weekends. Those who studied non-stop fared much worse and rapidly reached saturation point.


Posted: 2020-06-30 10:33
Human learning is not linear. You don't pick up exactly from where you left yesterday. It's absolutely normal that results are not always consistent. We are not machines. Even professional performers have ups and downs. Back in the day when there were no computers to check your progress, nobody cared.


Posted: 2020-06-30 22:07
nonagenarian:
Suppose you are exercising running.
When you run too fast too often you get wounded in your feet.
When you proceed with wounded feet you become slower and slower.
So take a period (14 days) off.


Thank you nonagenarian .
Maybe I'm really in a hurry. I studied very intensively for 3 half months. I was haunted by the information that Koch taught in two weeks. And maybe I took it into my head by mistake.


Posted: 2020-07-01 00:30
Another thing is that you are exercising with words, that starts a proces of understanding what you heard. It will at this point degenerate your random code detection.

After reaching lesson 40: d o not try to close the gap 20/15 to 20/20, but slow down the code generation to 15/15 or 16/16 with an exercising path wich keeps the same throughput (characters per minute)

A calculation was previously published on this forum by CWBrushup.



Posted: 2020-07-01 09:46
nonagenarian:
Another thing is that you are exercising with words, that starts a proces of understanding what you heard. It will at this point degenerate your random code detection.

After reaching lesson 40: d o not try to close the gap 20/15 to 20/20, but slow down the code generation to 15/15 or 16/16 with an exercising path wich keeps the same throughput (characters per minute)

A calculation was previously published on this forum by CWBrushup.




This idea of Brushup's - that you need to understand perfect code before you get on the bands - is fine if you have high aptitude and are heading for 25wpm in a month or two and the FCOC or CWOC or HSTC.


The advice from people who are going to make it to fast operators ( decoders actually ) does not apply to the people who are struggling and will struggle to make 15 wpm.


Someone on this forum actually "quoted" Brushup - that you won't get a reply on the bands unless your morse is perfect - you will be lidded and ignored
( except by HAMS of course )


Who needs random code detection Nonag ?? HAMS are not permitted to send coded messages.

CW needs new blood. Most of this potential new blood will make 20wpm in a year or more.


To become a CW HAM you need to read:-
call sign ( repeated several times, and you can ? for it again )
an OP's name ( repeated slowly several times )
a QTH ( repeated slowly several times )
and some stuff which is the same for most QSOs
tnx fer call/QSO =
ur RST 5NN =
fb =
hw? =
QTH london( Paris,New York ) =
wx es rain =
K

All the difficult stuff is repeated several times.


Once you are on the air a bit you can worry about becoming faster.



Presently, without a success, Tonyd will blow up, melt down and then give up to save his health and sanity - joining the 90% and removing a great wodge of enthusiasm, commitment, and effort from the CW world, probably for ever - which you may if you wish, contrast with the amount of effort expended by those who got to 25wpm in a month.

Tonyd might well make 40 wpm at some point, or he might not, but his current issue is avoiding burn out.


Starting use of CW at whatever standard is the way ahead.
Faster first isn't.
Correct code first isn't.

If anyone doesn't like learners - fine, QSO elsewhere.

IMNSHO
YMMV

cb




Posted: 2020-07-01 10:17
cb,

all you have just said is 100% correct and I agree with you. In practice, and unfortunately, most of what you hear from the "young blood" on the air is digital-to-digital generated code at 50+ wpm, especially on contest days.


Posted: 2020-07-01 17:11
Believing that we can progress from hearing characters, to words, to phrases. I put this type of capability in MCPT. In addition to being able to put any random words in an input file, you can link words so the group stays together. The glue is a ~.
Below is an quick input file. Then the output follows. I've used a BT as an interword delimiter (optional of course).

tnx~fer~call
wx~hr
ur~rst
cq~cq~de
hw?
ant~es~dipole
rig
qth

Output that you'd give LCWO is below:

hw qth hw wx hr cq cq de ur rst rig cq cq de
ur rst tnx fer call
owner@Mr-Finn MINGW64 ~/NEW/MCPT
$ cat inp
tnx~fer~call
wx~hr
ur~rst
cq~cq~de
hw?
ant~es~dipole
rig
qth

Output from MCPT to give to LCWO is below:

wx hr qth hw wx hr
tnx fer call ur rst
rig cq cq de qth
tnx fer call

Of course everything is configurable, and every run is different order.

The simple command line is: mcpt -in=input -delimiter="" -DM

I'm not sure why so many are adverse to try something new.

73
wa2nfn





Posted: 2020-07-01 18:15
cb:
This idea of Brushup's - that you need to understand perfect code before you get on the bands - is fine if you have high aptitude and are heading for 25wpm in a month or two and the FCOC or CWOC or HSTC.


Topic starter Tonyd obviously has high aptitude. just like me.

I think it is true for all people exercising here. Hence including myself. There was a discussion some time ago on eham.net in the CW forum. Operators there were complaining about hams on the bands (lesson 40 of LCWO in their belt) asking for QRS, When they willingfully did, the QRS-requesters still could not copy. No they had to tx characters with 20 wpm and letterspaces with 5wp up to minimum 10 wpm. So 2-way communication was simply impossible with the (double) paddle electronic keyer guys that went down to the bottom at 5 wpm. (5/5 they couldn't copy, it had to be between 20/5 up to 20/10 Only the guys working with mechanical bugs put them with the adjustable weight at 20 wpm and make character spaces by hand at 5 or 10 wpm.

So when you reach lesson 40 with 20/10 or 20/5 you still can't read regular Morse code,

Above that, when you meet a guy with a straight key, (invited by his electronic timed cq cq cq call call call, you still will have a too hard time, because sending with a straight key 20/5 is like reading a letter from your century old aunt Abigail written by handwriting while she is nearly blind and suffering from Parkinson disease.

cb:

The advice from people who are going to make it to fast operators ( decoders actually ) does not apply to the people who are struggling and will struggle to make 15 wpm.


I personally am sure that fast operators are fast operators and are not psychological patients with some mental disorder, [using decoders in order to impress other people], they better take a mortgage in order to buy a car - lamborghini or whatever - to impress their neighbours, there are allways people to test them. Since the development of decoders the number of fast operators is not obviously increased.
However AH8DX told me that microelectronic devices with the size of a bean to push in an ear are available to repeat a call at half the speed. Produced in Belarussia.
So the Mprse champiomship equivalent of Bruce Armstrong representing the USA in the Tour de France.

cb:

Someone on this forum actually "quoted" Brushup - that you won't get a reply on the bands unless your morse is perfect - you will be lidded and ignored
( except by HAMS of course )


The LID is a CW abbreviation for L-icenced ID-iot. As a matter of fact nowadays the license requirements are at such a low level, that you may expect that people with IQ below the defined idiot level can get it at first try. They do only need the possibility to push a button and turn a knob of some commercially available and by the supplier free installed equipment, in practice.

So learn Morse code and make a pre-selection at people that did the time consuming job of decoding the handwritten sounds where decoders fail.

cb:
Who needs random code detection Nonag ?? HAMS are not permitted to send coded messages.

CW needs new blood. Most of this potential new blood will make 20wpm in a year or more.


I read nonaginirain's message different, I think he means the 5 character codegroup Koch lessons are building up expertise in decoding random characters and when Topic Starter starts to word exercises, het has a fall back because he starts exercising understanding the semantics of a bunch of characters being a word.

cb:

To become a CW HAM you need to read:-
call sign ( repeated several times, and you can ? for it again )
an OP's name ( repeated slowly several times )
a QTH ( repeated slowly several times )
and some stuff which is the same for most QSOs
tnx fer call/QSO =
ur RST 5NN =
fb =
hw? =
QTH london( Paris,New York ) =
wx es rain =
K

All the difficult stuff is repeated several times.


Once you are on the air a bit you can worry about becoming faster.



Yes qth London and wx=rain is a tautology, not so? Just like 80 years ago QTH London ? London wx foggy foggy
Don't become angry, just kidding.

cb:


Presently, without a success, Tonyd will blow up, melt down and then give up to save his health and sanity - joining the 90% and removing a great wodge of enthusiasm, commitment, and effort from the CW world, probably for ever - which you may if you wish, contrast with the amount of effort expended by those who got to 25wpm in a month.

Tonyd might well make 40 wpm at some point, or he might not, but his current issue is avoiding burn out.


I agree Tonyd asks a question about degeneration of his effort results. I am sure he will succeed, Kudo's to Nonagerain who IMHO gave him the best possible advice.

cb:

Starting use of CW at whatever standard is the way ahead.


There is only one standard https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-M.1677-1

cb:

If anyone doesn't like learners - fine, QSO elsewhere.

IMNSHO

AFAIK everyone on the bands are helping beginners, however K7QO wrote someone did not when he was learning and it was his motivation to become the fastest american, never asking for QRS. hence EVERY behavior is explicable.

My opinion is humble, your not so humble as you wrote: IMNSHO, Readers may decide which is the best opinion, I vote for Nonagerain.

wouter




Posted: 2020-07-01 21:47
p1r4t3:


I think it is true for all people exercising here. Hence including myself. There was a discussion some time ago on eham.net in the CW forum. Operators there were complaining about hams on the bands (lesson 40 of LCWO in their belt) asking for QRS, When they willingfully did, the QRS-requesters still could not copy. No they had to tx characters with 20 wpm and letterspaces with 5wp up to minimum 10 wpm. So 2-way communication was simply impossible with the (double) paddle electronic keyer guys that went down to the bottom at 5 wpm. (5/5 they couldn't copy, it had to be between 20/5 up to 20/10 Only the guys working with mechanical bugs put them with the adjustable weight at 20 wpm and make character spaces by hand at 5 or 10 wpm.





https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,81443.msg581229.html#msg581229
#11

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,84728.msg614725.html#msg614725
#4

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,76586.msg528945.html#msg528945
4#

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,115665.msg1007194.html#msg1007194
#5

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,7954.msg46846.html#msg46846
#1



Posted: 2020-07-02 00:46
cb:
ok posts up to 8 years old of pa0blah pa0wv and wb2wik confirming the above posted ideas of pir413 what is your point?


Posted: 2020-07-02 13:36
Thank you for such attention to my problem.
I switched to training at a speed of 18/18 (after 20/16) and my code recognition became even worse. But at the same time, I began to hear the code completely differently. It was as if I had started the LCWO learning course anew. At the same time, I began to hear better call signs on the air. I am obviously not capable of conducting a QSO. I can understand the call sign from the fifth time and with great difficulty, but I consider it a great success. I stopped focusing on the progress of exercise statistics in LCWO so as not to lose motivation).
I think that after a certain recognition rate (for example, 20/10 or 20/15), each has his own individual way of learning how to receive a code.

My code learning abilities seem to be below average. But I'm not really worried about that. For me, this is first of all like art, and secondarily it is like a sport. And I'm not going to the Olympic Games)
Many mentioned the issue of the rare slow code on the air. I notice it too.
At QRS frequencies, almost no one is there. And those who are often a very weak signal.
I do not live very far from the center of Moscow. There is so far no possibility to mount a good antenna, and a lot of noise.
Therefore, I listen to the broadcast through different WEBSDR. Slow and well-heard code is extremely rare.
Such a code is usually transmitted from the key. And there often isn’t the right ratio of the length of the dot and dash. This is an added challenge.

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