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LCWO Discussion Forum [Atom LCWO Forum Feed]

This is a simple discussion forum for LCWO users. Feel free to use it for any kind of discussion related to this website.

Thread: speed settings

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AuthorText


Posted: 2020-05-25 16:23
So many discussions about speed and spacing... Here's my question, that I didn't seem to find.

The lesson (9) page shows: Current parameters: Character Speed = 20 wpm, Effective Speed = 5 wpm, Tone = 800 Hz, Start delay (seconds): = 3 seconds — Change

After I submit the work for scoring, I find it states: Real speed: 50 characters / 60.4 seconds = 9.9 wpm / 49.7 cpm

So what does effective speed 5 WPM really mean?

tnx
Ed AE2Z



Administrator


Posted: 2020-05-25 18:34
Hi Ed,

you're probably using the "HTML5 Audio" player (which is the default when you sign up on LCWO, but not for very much longer). The CW generator behind that has some major flaws when using Farnsworth timing, e.g. effective speed set to a lower value than character speed. The generated CW will be too fast.

If you go to your CW settings page and select the new player, still marked as "Experimental", you'll get accurate timing, and the calculated "real speed" will be relatively close to the speed you set.

Why is it not exactly the same? Because the speeds you *set* (Character speed and effective speed) are by the PARIS norm (e.g. for n WpM you can send the word "PARIS" n times in one minute), but as soon as you use different characters than just "PARIS", e.g. real letter/figure groups, the effective speed will typically be a little lower (because five average random characters are a little longer than PARIS; especially when figures are involved).

73
Fabian


Posted: 2020-05-25 20:58
Many thanks for the response and explanation. I'll try the new player. Truth to tell, I was doing pretty well at the speed I was getting, until I missed a week of practice. I hope to get back ot that speed soon.

I passed a 13 WPM test, but that was back in 1993 or so. Now that I have a decent station and antenna, I'm looking at that mysterious CW and feel the need to understand it.

Best, Ed
Administrator


Posted: 2020-05-25 21:39
Great - good luck and see you on the bands one day!

73
Fabian


Posted: 2021-01-15 05:07
Wow, the speeds are really different. The HTML5 player is way too fast.

I have it set at 20/7 because I could not keep up at 20/10. I've been getting 13 groups in 70 seconds, which is about 11 wpm! With the other audio player, I get seven groups in 57 seconds, very close to 7 wpm.

This happens on both Safari and Chrome on Mac.


Posted: 2021-01-16 17:07


If you go to your CW settings page and select the new player, still marked as "Experimental", you'll get accurate timing, and the calculated "real speed" will be relatively close to the speed you set.
Fabian, the only alternative that I found to the HTML player was JSCWLIB (I think that was it). Is this the newer player?



Posted: 2021-01-17 00:14
Yes it is.


Posted: 2021-01-28 20:16
Okay, I have a question too, or two. I changed the speed to 60/15 and as soon as I get to lesson 2 (don't laugh), I'm out after 10 chars. In lesson one it's no problem, K and M, totally easy. But as soon as U joins in, I'm lost. Is the speed to fast? Is there still hope for me? plz... ;)

73 Marc


Posted: 2021-01-28 23:00
Hypokras:
Okay, I have a question too, or two. I changed the speed to 60/15 and as soon as I get to lesson 2 (don't laugh), I'm out after 10 chars. In lesson one it's no problem, K and M, totally easy. But as soon as U joins in, I'm lost. Is the speed to fast? Is there still hope for me? plz... ;)

73 Marc


How many attempts tho ?

How may lesson 1 before you moved on ?

Did it sink in, or were you just doing one-or-the-other ?

Did you mean 60/15 ?

cb




Posted: 2021-01-28 23:59
Use 20/10 or when your progress is too low 20/5


Posted: 2021-01-29 09:13
Yes, I meant 60/15. I heard from many experienced telegraphers, that a speed which is too slow is a bad idea when start learning to code. And they're right: Now that I hear the first two "Koch-letters" in slower speed, it's absolutely no problem. Also the others.
So I'm a little bit confused now: What is the absolute minimum to start with? 20/10 is too slow, the sounds are really different. Would it help if I go back to 60/10? I'm a bit afraid of learning "the wrong sound". And I would like to learn the "right thing" from the beginning, even if it's harder in te beginning. Because unlearn and relearn something is the best way to quit. And I don't want to quit.

Thank you for your answers and your help.

73
Marc


Posted: 2021-01-29 09:38
cb:
How many attempts tho ?

How may lesson 1 before you moved on ?

Did it sink in, or were you just doing one-or-the-other ?


Not many, half a dozen maybe? But with > 90% in a row.

Maybe too few to let it sink in. And yes, 60/15, to learn the proper sound of the character.

73
Marc


Posted: 2021-01-29 10:06
But now I'm really confused. This is my latest try:

Gruppen: 10 (50 Zeichen), Fehler 0 = 0%

Reale Geschwindigkeit: 50 Zeichen / 59.6 Sekunden = 10.1 WPM / 50.4 ZpM

Levenshtein-Fehler: 0 = 0 %

Gut! Genauigkeit über 90%. Zeit für die nächste Lektion!


This one came out without thinking. In fact I had the feeling, that 20 - 30 % would be wrong. How can my feeling be so different from what I really hear and type?

Thank you for your patience and help

73
Marc


Posted: 2021-01-29 12:23
Hypokras:
Yes, I meant 60/15. I heard from many experienced telegraphers, that a speed which is too slow is a bad idea when start learning to code. And they're right: Now that I hear the first two "Koch-letters" in slower speed, it's absolutely no problem. Also the others.
So I'm a little bit confused now: What is the absolute minimum to start with? 20/10 is too slow, the sounds are really different. Would it help if I go back to 60/10?



What speed do you plan to be using. You won't find very many people going at 60 wpm.

What is your level of aptitude ( do you think )?

If you proceed beyond that then you will stall at the half way point.



Unless you know you have very high aptitude ( we don't know anything about you so we can't say )
you may be better advised to try 20/x or 25/x wpm and see how you go.

Drop x down to 5 if you need time, rather than drop out


To slow = maybe waste a bit of time. Too fast generally = start again slower - or more likely get fed up and give up.



The speed for a "first class operator" ( and a commercial operator ) is 25wpm.

20wpm is fine on the bands . . .



Hypokras:

I'm a bit afraid of learning "the wrong sound". And I would like to learn the "right thing" from the beginning, even if it's harder in te beginning. Because unlearn and relearn something is the best way to quit. And I don't want to quit.

Thank you for your answers and your help.

73
Marc




For the first lesson you can get 90% just by switching character when you hear the morse change - but the chars won't have sunk in very well.

Are you typing in or are you writing down?


You may end up with a link morse -> keyboard key
rather than
morse -> letter


You are probably aiming to decode in your head rather than type-out or write-down
so
you are trying to build an automatic response . .

hear morse - letter pops into your head automagically.


This is not the same as just learning the letters. It takes time and lots ( and probably lots ) of repetition.



Most people with higher aptitude will wizz through picking up morse without too much effort - say a few weeks to 25wpm.

We won't hear from them, and so this forum is really for people who are not of high aptitude and who will need to work at it for a bit.

So we guess you are in that category . . .


cb







Posted: 2021-01-29 12:29
Hypokras:
But now I'm really confused. This is my latest try:

Gruppen: 10 (50 Zeichen), Fehler 0 = 0%

Reale Geschwindigkeit: 50 Zeichen / 59.6 Sekunden = 10.1 WPM / 50.4 ZpM

Levenshtein-Fehler: 0 = 0 %

Gut! Genauigkeit über 90%. Zeit für die nächste Lektion!


This one came out without thinking. In fact I had the feeling, that 20 - 30 % would be wrong. How can my feeling be so different from what I really hear and type?

Thank you for your patience and help

73
Marc



Hypokras:

But now I'm really confused. This is my latest try:
Groups: 10 (50 characters), error 0 = 0%
Real speed: 50 characters / 59.6 seconds = 10.1 WPM / 50.4 cpm
Levenshtein error: 0 = 0%
Well! Accuracy over 90%. Time for the next lesson!
This one came out without thinking.
In fact I had the feeling that 20-30% would be wrong.
How can my feeling be so different from what I really hear and type?
Thank you for your patience and help






This is lesson 2, so you are not trying yourself very hard at this stage.

If you don't know what you are hearing then you aren't getting into head copy land.

BUT

you might have high aptitude - who knows?


Good luck anyway. Enjoy.

Let us know how you get on . .

cb



Posted: 2021-01-29 17:11
Up to now, I’m rather typing than writing, since it’s faster and more unconscious. I thought that might be a good idea …
Should I write down instead?

My goal is to hear and to understand. As in spoken clear language, I understand people when they’re talking. I want to be able to listen to code and to know what they are sending.

> hear morse - letter pops into your head automagically.

That would be great I think.

> This is not the same as just learning the letters. It takes time and lots ( and probably lots ) of repetition.

I’m fine with that. I’m not in a hurry.

> So we guess you are in that category . . .

Most likely, I am. ;)

73
Marc


Posted: 2021-01-29 17:27
Hypokras:
Up to now, I’m rather typing than writing, since it’s faster and more unconscious. I thought that might be a good idea …
Should I write down instead?


. . you only need to write if you can't already touch type.


Hypokras:

My goal is to hear and to understand. As in spoken clear language, I understand people when they’re talking. I want to be able to listen to code and to know what they are sending.

> hear morse - letter pops into your head automagically.

That would be great I think.

> This is not the same as just learning the letters. It takes time and lots ( and probably lots ) of repetition.

I’m fine with that. I’m not in a hurry.

> So we guess you are in that category . . .

Most likely, I am. ;)


. . and maybe not . .

Hypokras:

73
Marc


We can't tell you what to do - only nasty things and potential traps to avoid,

which cause much Heulen und Zähneknirschen sein etc when they happen


See how you are getting on next week . . .


cb



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_and_gnashing_of_teeth


Posted: 2021-01-29 21:34
I am not reading all this stuff above.

Believe me 60/15 is rediculous.

You learn morse code, but the sound op a character at 60 wpm you probably will never decode. When you try to proceed you will fail, and give up.


You will learn to play it back in your mind in the enormous space between two characters but helas you can't copy plain normal Morse code at 12 till 20 wpm, which is most used.

Best thing for you is exercise at 20/5 and when you master all 41 characters of this course by reaching lesson 40. you are ready to learn real Morse code by narrowing the gap x/(x-n) with n>0
to (x-m)/(x-m) ending up with with 13

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