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LCWO Discussion Forum [Atom LCWO Forum Feed]

This is a simple discussion forum for LCWO users. Feel free to use it for any kind of discussion related to this website.

Thread: confuse similar pair letters "H" "5" and "/" "="

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AuthorText


Posted: 2020-05-01 15:24
I welcome everyone.
I will be very glad to any advice, how is it easier to learn the difference in similar characters? I constantly confuse the characters "5" "H" and "/" "=".
I'm in lesson 30 and i do it lesson at 20/6 wpm .
I do exercises on MorseMachine and I do not confuse these symbols at any speed up to 25 wpm. But when I start doing exercises with groups, I get confused.
I have done about 500 exercises containing these symbols and am still confused.


Posted: 2020-05-01 20:13
Tonyd

I have exactly same problem. I can't go above lesson 30 though i'm doing well on morsemachine. Maybe you accidentally started counting dits and dashes instead of hearing the whole character as a single sound? I believe its my case, i was struggling to memorize 2-3-h-5-/-= and my brain did me a 'favor' by remembering the pictorial pattern and it ruined everything. I decided to increase character speed above 25 so dits and dashes merge and my brain won't be able to count beeps.


Posted: 2020-05-01 23:17

Luray

I reduced the number of characters in the group to 3 and began to train long exercises for 3 or 4 minutes.
Suddenly, a breakthrough had just occurred and I began to clearly hear a short sound in the symbol "/", he stopped getting confused with "=".
I did not expect this to happen so quickly and almost instantly.
However, with the characters “H” and “5” this has not yet happened


Posted: 2020-05-02 08:36
Best way to address those problems is to drill only those characters.

Go to "Change CW Settings', in "Account" and select "H", "5", "=" and "/" then, in "Speed Practice", go under "Code Groups" and create 1mn files (or longer) with only those characters.

You will be surprised at how quickly you will improve!


Posted: 2020-05-13 18:17
ID:
Best way to address those problems is to drill only those characters.



Greetings ID-ID

This is strange, but for some reason this does not work for me.
I easily distinguish between V / 4 H / 5 and B / 6 when they are separate from other characters.
But as soon as I start doing exercises with a full set of characters, they are completely mixed.
I have been practicing these symbols for 12 hours, but there is still no breakthrough.


Posted: 2020-05-13 19:52
Tonyd:
Greetings ID-ID

This is strange, but for some reason this does not work for me.
I easily distinguish between V / 4 H / 5 and B / 6 when they are separate from other characters.
But as soon as I start doing exercises with a full set of characters, they are completely mixed.
I have been practicing these symbols for 12 hours, but there is still no breakthrough.



This issue is a nuisance for everyone, probably the most difficult component and continues to some extent
in that
if you are going to have troubles reading code this is the area where it will occur.

Don't over rate these troubles.



There are two ways to distinguish s h h 5 at speed.

Both are rhythm based i.e.

1/ You sense the sequence as a kind of beat - rather than the actual number of dits which is the stage you are ( probably ) at now.

2/ The other is when you become timing sensitive, so you can judge from how long the character took to run compared to the other characters you just heard.

And both at once when you get used to it - which takes some time.


As you get more proficient, the morse seems to slow down - i.e. you seem to have more time for some reason.



A third "way" is through context ( much used )
if it's a call sign it's /p for portable not =p

It could be ...sp but it will be sent twice if it's a call.



The "non way ahead" is counting the dits ( or killig yourself with it )




This is why we ( some of us anyway ) say -

listen to lots of morse, don't go too fast, don't check your speed all the time, don't try too hard, don't expect any short cuts to learning towork etc


If I was you I wouldn't bother about s h h 5 issues just yet.

Finish the 40 lessons.

Decode lots of morse.


cb



Posted: 2020-05-14 14:11
Thank you, Chris

I understand that I'm in a hurry. I do 2-3 hours a day for the third month.
Each brain has its own characteristics.
The moment will come when I will recognize all the characters.
I need more patience)


Posted: 2020-05-16 14:13
Tonyd
You certainly have a different brain than mine - my brain is fried after an hour a day, sometimes less.

It just goes to show that we are all somewhat different. But it's noticeable, through posts here on the forum, that learning trends do emerge. So, in some ways, we are all the same too.


Posted: 2020-05-17 09:03
Tonyd:
Greetings ID-ID

This is strange, but for some reason this does not work for me.
I easily distinguish between V / 4 H / 5 and B / 6 when they are separate from other characters.
But as soon as I start doing exercises with a full set of characters, they are completely mixed.
I have been practicing these symbols for 12 hours, but there is still no breakthrough.


As Chris said, it is a general state of affairs and all of us face difficulties with those characters.

In my own case, I had a quite some difficulties with them and the turning point occurred when, instead of practicing sending and receiving with a paddle, I started drilling the characters with a straight key using a marvelous old RAF manual, A.W. Eley's "The New Morse Code Manual". He presents the characters by cognate groups:

Lesson 1 : T, M, O (-, --, ---)
Lesson 2: E, I, S, H (.,..,...,....)
Lesson 3: revision
Lesson 4: A, U, V (.-, ..-, ...-)
Lesson 5: N, D, B (-., -.., -...)

It built a very strong muscle memory for those characters with a straight key and I have far fewer problems recognising them when I hear them now.

You can find pdf copies of Eley's manual on the web, try using it or drawing from it for your practice and you may find that the sequence he suggest for learning the characters works better for you than LCWO's sequence. It really did for me.

You will hear it said that it is not a a good idea to start sending too early, before you have learned the code, as it will spoil your fist, but actually this was standard RAF training in the 1950s and seemed to work just fine.

I have personally found practicing sending and receiving with a straight key (i.e. you listen to a character or later on a group of characters and send it back) far more helpful than doing the same with a paddle.

I can see why the old-timers suggest starting with a straight key and, in my own case, I diligently use both.


Posted: 2020-05-17 10:34
ID:
I started drilling the characters with a straight key using a marvelous old RAF manual, A.W. Eley's "The New Morse Code Manual".


I have a pdf of that book but I never bothered reading it. Is this method supposed to be used just for sending or also for copying?

Second question: do you think sending helps consolidating copying? I'm thinking of buying a straight key for practising but I thought one should get to at least 10-15 wpm before sending.


Posted: 2020-05-17 13:31
ID:

It built a very strong muscle memory for those characters with a straight key and I have far fewer problems recognising them when I hear them now.


Don't forget that the so called "muscle-memory" is actually all in the brain . . .

ID:

You can find pdf copies of Eley's manual on the web, try using it or drawing from it for your practice and you may find that the sequence he suggest for learning the characters works better for you than LCWO's sequence. It really did for me.


. . and sometimes a change is as good as a rest . .

ID:

You will hear it said that it is not a a good idea to start sending too early, before you have learned the code, as it will spoil your fist, but actually this was standard RAF training in the 1950s and seemed to work just fine.




Also bear in mind that service training is monitored by the tutor, who can set an exercise then switch his headset around so he can hear each student in turn.

Anyone messing up their "fist" can be caught by the tutor, before bad habits have a chance to form.


Some morse decoders might flag up "habit" errors, but mostly a decoder sets a threshold to distinguish between a "dah" and a "dit" measured in computer style to the ms
so
it's ( in this case ) possible to have the dit and the dah almost the same length - too close for you to to distinguish,
and
watch a decoder decode it perfectly
i.e. not a help to a human student . .



ID:

I have personally found practicing sending and receiving with a straight key (i.e. you listen to a character or later on a group of characters and send it back) far more helpful than doing the same with a paddle.

I can see why the old-timers suggest starting with a straight key and, in my own case, I diligently use both.



You might try another audio frequency to see if your ears are better else where in the audio spectrum.

It's unlikley they have a flat response.

This idea seems to get pooh-poohed in some quarters - but I think mainly from people breezing along at 30+wpm who don't have any issues to contend with.

If you can't hear it easily then you can't decode it. .

YMMV etc

cb






Posted: 2020-05-17 15:26
ID:
SNIP
a marvelous old RAF manual, A.W. Eley's "The New Morse Code Manual". He presents the characters by cognate groups:


Just looking at that manual
( eg. http://www.g4dmp.co.uk/atcmorse.pdf )

Great stuff ( I've never seen this before - only the US DoD one . . )

. . particularly page 12 ( pdf page 14 ) . . the practice oscillator

where the key switches the valve HT ( prob 300 VDC)
which then goes up to the headphones ( metal, across the head see photo page 27) before
through the feedback transformer up to the anode.

Maybe that speeded their training up a bit . . .

or possibly just an example unwarrantableness Lesson 11 ( page 30 )

Anyway

The Morse Code is a subject interesting alike to the old and to the young. ( page 36 )

So, now you know.

Toc Monkey Orange ( page 9 )

I wonder if nonag remembers this ?

cb


Posted: 2020-05-17 17:08
Page 3:
of importance besides learning the actual code characters themselves is practice ........PRACTICE . . . . AND MORE PRACTICE

Absolutely.


Posted: 2020-05-18 08:43
cb:
Just looking at that manual
( eg. http://www.g4dmp.co.uk/atcmorse.pdf )

Great stuff ( I've never seen this before - only the US DoD one . . )

. . particularly page 12 ( pdf page 14 ) . . the practice oscillator

where the key switches the valve HT ( prob 300 VDC)
which then goes up to the headphones ( metal, across the head see photo page 27) before
through the feedback transformer up to the anode.

Maybe that speeded their training up a bit . . .

or possibly just an example unwarrantableness Lesson 11 ( page 30 )

Anyway

The Morse Code is a subject interesting alike to the old and to the young. ( page 36 )

So, now you know.

Toc Monkey Orange ( page 9 )

I wonder if nonag remembers this ?

cb


Well, nothing like a bit of Pavlovian reinforcement, preferably using electrical stimulation (300V sounds just about right!)

Joking aside, I found the book delightful: so old-fashioned and Victorian. I greatly enjoyed the later exercises which read like a homily:

Page 43:

"The duty of man in the management of his worldly affairs must let it clearly be seen that he pursues his worldly calling from a principle of duty not from a sordid love of gain".

Hear, hear!

It reminds one of a simpler world and one we have delighted in breaking to pieces without building anything meaningful to replace it.

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