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LCWO Discussion Forum [Atom LCWO Forum Feed]

This is a simple discussion forum for LCWO users. Feel free to use it for any kind of discussion related to this website.

Thread: Zeichengeschwindigkeit vs. Effektivgeschwindigkeit

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AuthorText


Posted: 2019-01-30 19:59
Hello,
on the setting page CW-Parameter you have the option to adjust the parameter Zeichengeschwindigkeit (e.g. ZG = 20 WpM) and the parameter Effektivgeschwindigkeit (EG


Posted: 2019-01-30 20:26
Yup . . .

google site:lcwo.net effective speed

https://lcwo.net/forum/1755

https://lcwo.net/forum/1345/Effective-Speed-Too-Fast-Here

https://lcwo.net/forum/935

https://lcwo.net/forum/553

https://lcwo.net/forum/78




Posted: 2019-01-30 21:52
cb,

Thanks for the research. Some questions are coming back and back over time.

There should be a list of FAQ on this website.

DJ1YFK wrote in forum/78
"Effective speed: The actual number (well, approximately) of words (each 5 characters) sent in one minute. "

Not OK, may be that is the origin of a lot of misunderstanding.

The throughput (actual number of words transmitted per minute) is a lot higher than the effective speed, as defined in the second number after the slas, like 20/5

BrushupCW, one of your referenced above, calculated it.


Posted: 2019-01-31 18:30
Dear all,
thanks very much for the fast and excellent comments and recommendation. I have to apologize not checked the forum about the topic first.

In particular the link "https://lcwo.net/forum/78 " was a great help for me.
What I try to practice from now is to start each new lesson with the setting of 20/6 and increase the effective speed slowly up to 20/10. At present it seems to me that I will never become faster then 20/10 but to meet the requirements of the exam at the Bundesnetzagentur I would like to reach at least 20/10 to be sure to fulfill the requested speed of 60 BpM.

Thanks again
Kind regards
Matthias (DM1ATT)


Posted: 2019-01-31 23:35
Hi Matthias

DM1ATT:

In particular the link "https://lcwo.net/forum/78 " was a great help for me.


If you want to know how it actually changes with the settings, BrushupCW's calculation in :-

https://lcwo.net/forum/1345/

. . . explain what the setting values actually do.

DM1ATT:

At present it seems to me that I will never become faster then 20/10
(DM1ATT)


Yes you will . . its inevitable if your ears work OK and you keep going.

Make sure you are progressing else you will get bored after a bit and give up.

Learn at as fast a speed as you can, and still progress eg. 20/10 20/5, 20/2 if you need to.

Then speed up. Some people get to 25/25 in only a week but sounds like you didn't, in the past week anyway . .

I advise that by trial of a few Hz settings you make sure you choose an audio tone at which your ears can hear morse clearly . .
- but no one else seems to agree with me, so maybe it's just me who doesn't have a flat response
- on the other hand almost everyone gives up after a bit and there must be a number of reasons for this, not just lazyness . . .

Listen to lots of morse and don't spend all your time testing your speed.

Get some mp3 files on your cellphone and listen to them for those wasted 10 mins when you are on a tram etc

Good luck anyway . .

By the way, what was your question ? - your original post seems to be cut short . . .


cb


Posted: 2019-01-31 23:55
https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telekommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Frequenzen/Amateurfunk/AmtsblattverfuegungenAFu/Vfg42007EinzelheitenzuPrId8696pdf.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=4


Posted: 2019-02-01 20:15
Yes, I realized after a while that my question which I send into the forum via the post box was not correct and not completely copied from my notes. Sorry about that. But for my surprise, I realized that the Ham radio operator and I guess especially the CW Ham radio operator is trained to receive messages in an error-tolerant manner. Without any amendments from my side, you answered already my question about the differences between character speed and effective speed settings in the LCWO-Webprogramm completely. So thanks again for this big help and thanks as well for all the links with the additional information.

Maybe you should know that I‘m completely new in the ham radio world. I acquired my license and my call sign last year but until today I still do not have any practical Ham radio experience. My idea is to accomplish the missing morse examen at first and to get the morse certification hopefully until summer this year.
Afterwards, I would like to buy a ham radio equipment and to become a member of one of the DARC OV's anywhere in my neighborhood.

With the last tuning of my training concept, I practice now the LCWO lessons with a speed setting of 30/7. I start new lessons with a setting of around 30/2-3 and I in increasing the effective speed constantly up to 7. The setting 30/7 ist at present the fastest speed I‘m able to handle. The amount of words or rather the amount of letters is equal to approximately 11-13 WpM. That should be hopefully enough to pass the exam at which a speed of 60 BpM will be requested.

Thanks agian to all of you
Matthias (DM1ATT)


Posted: 2019-02-05 19:52
Yes, OK, It has not so much sense to exercise character speed 30. So lower that to maximal 20 and at least 15.

Remember real Morse code has effective speed and character speed equal.

Somewhere in one of the references CB presented, BrushupCw adviced that, after you master all the characters, let say at 20/5 to LOWER the 20 and to INCREASE the 5 gradually till you end up with the same number of characters per minute throughput, but REAL Morse code. Something like 9/9 when I remember correct.


Posted: 2019-02-08 21:01
DM1ATT:


{SNIP}

With the last tuning of my training concept, I practice now the LCWO lessons with a speed setting of 30/7. I start new lessons with a setting of around 30/2-3 and I in increasing the effective speed constantly up to 7. The setting 30/7 ist at present the fastest speed I‘m able to handle. The amount of words or rather the amount of letters is equal to approximately 11-13 WpM. That should be hopefully enough to pass the exam at which a speed of 60 BpM will be requested.

Thanks agian to all of you
Matthias (DM1ATT)



Looks like you are on lesson three "k m u r" after 2 weeks

It MIGHT be a bit soon to say you are OK at 30/7 so just be wary of going too fast at first . . .

You really want to aim to just hear the character itself not the morse at all - which mostly comes from LOTS of repetition.

LOTS of people start off just fine, then reach a plateau of progress and give up, because decoding hasn't become automatic - they still have to think about it and can't manage at lesson 30, even by slowing down.

So, if you find you are plateauing, consider what "nonagenarian - HH" ( I think it stands for His Highness ) says and get through all the characters making steady progress . .

On the other hand you might steam straight through at 30/7 but the drop out rate suggests otherwise . . .

cb


Posted: 2019-02-09 15:58
Hello nonagenarian and cb – Chris,
yes, you are right, I struggle very hard with my method to learn the morse code.

I was starting to learn morse code fourteen days ago and I took a lot of effort to find a training concept. My two aims are first to meet the requirements* of the voluntary morse examination of the Bundesnetzagentur and second to pass the examen hopefully in six or eight months at the end of summer 2019.
My aim is not to become a fast CW specialist like some other unbelievable Ham freaks you can find here in the net. My aim is only to perform a QSO via CW at a speed with is accepted on the Ham radio bands.
* Requirements Bundesnetzagentur: 12 WpM at Tempo 60 means 5 letters x 12 Words = 60 letters/Minute equal to 60 BpM)

Based on what I caught up so far on the internet is that it is important not to decode the morse signal by counting the dits and dots. The key to learn morse code is to decode the signal directly from the sound into the letter without the detour via counting dits and dots. I have no doubt about this method, it is totally understandable for me.

My problem is to find the best speed settings in the LCWO.net online program. Best, means in this context, to have a constant learning progress by exercising at least 30 minutes morse code every day with the aim to master Tempo 60 (60 BpM) after 6 or 8 months.

Pete Hadley, K6BFA recommended in his YouTube video (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT973YhjdR4) to start with a character speed of 30 WpM and an effective speed which is at the beginning slow enough to be able to understand the letters.
With time, if someone is able to recognise the correct letter he shall increase the effective speed faster and faster. The method has two goals. 1) not to count any dits and dots and 2) if someone is able to handle a fast character speed it is easier to reduce the speed than the other way round.

For the second goal I found in the internet analogue arguments from other radio amateurs. They explained that they had started from the beginning once again if they increased the character speed from 18 WpM to 20 WpM only. The sound for each letter, when using a faster character speed is obviously totally different to the sound of the slower one and needs to be learned once again. The other way round, from a fast to a slow character speed seems to be not a problem for our brain however.

That was the reason why I started with the speed setting 30/3. For the first LCWO.net lessons I was able to master the speed 30/7 but at present I‘m working on lesson number 3 and even that I try to train one hour a day I cannot master the speed 30/4 after one week. But I would like to avoid to start learning morse code twice.

So if I go for your both recommendations I should start with the speed of 20/5 and to come up later with for example 9/9. My question is, is this OK to fulfill my two requirements 1) not to count dits and dots and 2) to master the voluntary morse examination with a speed of 60BpM

I signed up for the Skype morse course at HTC (link: http://www.htc.ch/index.php/de/news/209-skype-morsekurs-fuer-anfaenger). This course will start on the 27th of March 2019. To be well prepared I will do my best until the course will start.


Thanks again to all of you and your very helpful arguments and recommendations.
Matthias (DM1ATT)


Posted: 2019-02-09 18:23
DM1ATT:
Hello nonagenarian and cb – Chris,
yes, you are right, I struggle very hard with my method to learn the morse code.


Lots of people struggle.

Most eventually give up . . .

DM1ATT:

I was starting to learn morse code fourteen days ago and I took a lot of effort to find a training concept. My two aims are first to meet the requirements* of the voluntary morse examination of the Bundesnetzagentur and second to pass the examen hopefully in six or eight months at the end of summer 2019.


An aim is good - especially if it turns out to be realistic

DM1ATT:

My aim is not to become a fast CW specialist like some other unbelievable Ham freaks you can find here in the net. My aim is only to perform a QSO via CW at a speed with is accepted on the Ham radio bands.
* Requirements Bundesnetzagentur: 12 WpM at Tempo 60 means 5 letters x 12 Words = 60 letters/Minute equal to 60 BpM)


15 wpm is usable.
People should slow down to match your sending speed, which should normally indicate how well you can read . .

Lots of QSOs follow a similar pattern . . .

See 6:50 mins into :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPwxgH-BE10&feature=youtu.be



DM1ATT:

Based on what I caught up so far on the internet is that it is important not to decode the morse signal by counting the dits and dots. The key to learn morse code is to decode the signal directly from the sound into the letter without the detour via counting dits and dots. I have no doubt about this method, it is totally understandable for me.


It's much better to decode just on the sound of a character rather than counting - but you need to recognise the character to start off with.

The Koch method gets round this by introducing new letters one at a time after you reach 90% with the previous ones, so the letter you don't know must be the new one . . you don't have to count it, you can just listen and remember it.

DM1ATT:

My problem is to find the best speed settings in the LCWO.net online program. Best, means in this context, to have a constant learning progress by exercising at least 30 minutes morse code every day with the aim to master Tempo 60 (60 BpM) after 6 or 8 months.


If you wish to do 30 mins a day then AT FIRST do several 5 min sessions until you get used to it all . . .

DM1ATT:

Pete Hadley, K6BFA recommended in his YouTube video (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT973YhjdR4) to start with a character speed of 30 WpM and an effective speed which is at the beginning slow enough to be able to understand the letters.


That's great for all the people for whom it works.

It's terminal for all the people for whom it doesn't work . . .

Be careful with this sort of idea if you are over 30 years age . .

DM1ATT:

With time, if someone is able to recognise the correct letter he shall increase the effective speed faster and faster. The method has two goals. 1) not to count any dits and dots and 2) if someone is able to handle a fast character speed it is easier to reduce the speed than the other way round.

For the second goal I found in the internet analogue arguments from other radio amateurs. They explained that they had started from the beginning once again if they increased the character speed from 18 WpM to 20 WpM only. The sound for each letter, when using a faster character speed is obviously totally different to the sound of the slower one and needs to be learned once again. The other way round, from a fast to a slow character speed seems to be not a problem for our brain however.


. . . but other operators will report you how they went for a test at one speed and found that they had been tested at a faster speed. YMMV

Large speed changes sound very different . . .

It also seems to work the other way round too, with some faster operators having a job at 10wpm . . .

DM1ATT:

That was the reason why I started with the speed setting 30/3. For the first LCWO.net lessons I was able to master the speed 30/7 but at present I‘m working on lesson number 3 and even that I try to train one hour a day I cannot master the speed 30/4 after one week. But I would like to avoid to start learning morse code twice.


If you have a talent for morse then you will pick it up in 2 - 8 weeks with little effort - else you are like the large majority of us and will have to do some work . . ( worth it in the end though )

You haven't reached 25wpm in 14 days - so it looks like you might be in for a modicum of effort to succeed.

Try 20/2 if necessary to learn all the characters. You might mange 20/10 or 20/5 - you will have to experiment for yourself.


Don't worry too much about learning twice.

If you like to have something to worry about, you should instead be worrying about giving up in frustration as an unpleasant outcome - all too common.

DM1ATT:

So if I go for your both recommendations I should start with the speed of 20/5 and to come up later with for example 9/9. My question is, is this OK to fulfill my two requirements 1) not to count dits and dots and 2) to master the voluntary morse examination with a speed of 60BpM


60 Buchtstaben Pro Minute is 12WPM
so
you should set lcwo to 12/12 for a session or two and see how you get on at that speed - just to put off worrying for a bit anyway . . .

My guess is you won't have any trouble passing your exam unless you aim to go too fast at first.

DM1ATT:

I signed up for the Skype morse course at HTC (link: http://www.htc.ch/index.php/de/news/209-skype-morsekurs-fuer-anfaenger). This course will start on the 27th of March 2019. To be well prepared I will do my best until the course will start.


Thanks again to all of you and your very helpful arguments and recommendations.
Matthias (DM1ATT)




Everyone progresses at their own speed according to their own aptitude, which is the result of many factors including, age, hearing, ability with letters etc

Everyone needs to find out themselves what best suits them.

There is lots of advise on lcwo - much from people who read at 40wpm and think everyone is the same as them.
I expect anyone with this level of aptitude doesn't need much advice though . . .

In the end most people give up.


What you are trying to achieve is to make an association between a morse character which you hear and a corresponding text character which pops into your mind automatically as a reflex when you hear it.

This is achieved by
1/ hear the morse
2/ think of the character
3/ associate
4,5,6,7 etc/ repeat lots of times - it then becomes automatic, unthinking, sometimes better when you are half asleep



Going too slow means that the association becomes fixed to very slow morse.

Going too fast means you don't have time to make the association before the next letter and you give up in frustration after a period of no more progress.

Find out which one suits you best, as quickly as you can !!


Then . . .

When you have been morsing for some time, you will be able to remember several of the morse sound subconciously, and decode them behind the arrival of the morse all in your head.

You will also find yourself remembering the message in the text you have decoded.

This takes time to achieve - usually AFTER you have learned all the characters.

Some people reach 25wpm in 14 days - others never quite.


Try reading this if you haven't already done so . .

http://www.n9bor.us/images/pdf/n0hff_3.pdf



Posted: 2019-02-10 16:16
Hello cb – Chris,
many thanks for your big effort to vitalize my motivation.

Yes, I know the book you are mentioned in your last sentence and I had downloaded it already. But unfortunately I did not read it carefully, I had overflown only a few pages and chapters. I searched the half internet for the topic „morse-code learning“ and I was totally confused by the mass of information I collected.

What I noticed quickly during my search activities was the discussion about the question what is the correct speed. This incomplete instruction in mind, I tried my best to avoid any greenhorn mistakes and decided highly motivated for learning morse-code by practice 30 WpM. But I realised during the last week, that‘s too much for me and I noticed the feeling that there will be no chance to become a Ham with morse-CW skills.

After reading your answer in the forum I took a break and considered your recommendation and I started to read the book of William G. Pierpont (N0HFF) once again but this time more carefully.
In chapter 6 he discussed questions about speed and I‘m thinking he is completely right. Accuracy is more important than speed.

My I idea is to be able to perform on amateur radio frequencies morse-code QSO's which are accepted by most of the Ham community members. I‘m not interested to become a high speed morse-code champion. I would like to exercise my morse-code QSO‘s manually with hands on paddles and with my ears at the loudspeaker, with my own brain as a modem and not with a computer as a modulator in between. I would like to learn how to apply CW in the old style like the old telegraphers have done it more than 100 years ago, when those guys kicked-off that fascinating thing what we know today as the internet.

I will make a print out of this book and will read it complete. For now I have changed my character speed once again down to 25 WpM. I have recognized if I go down to 20 WpM that I begin to start counting the dits and dots. The speed 25 WpM seems to me for my skills at present at least until LCWO.net lesson No. 5 acceptable.

I will maintain this character speed in combination with a low effective speed. My interim aim is to be able to understand all 40 characters when starting the HTC Skype Telegrafie Corse 2019 end of March.

So thanks again for the fruitful discussion with you and all the other once here in the forum. I will do my very best to contact you soon by making use of morse-code on the amateur radio frequencies.

Matthias (DM1ATT)


Posted: 2019-02-10 17:04
Of course "Accuracy is more important than speed" like cb wrote.

Suppose you have to repeat all code twice in order to get it correct and reliable over to the receiving station due to using a high speed. You have to sent it at least twice.
In that case you half your effective speed.

A better choice would have been to half your speed and adapt to the proficiency of the receiving station.

However with standard rubber stamp QSO text, the set of possible words is limited to CW abbreviations, you only have to copy call, name and QTH. and those are repeated at least twice. Draw your conclusion.

Check the way of testing your skills, possibly it is a standard QSO text.

Often it is thought when you start with 20/10 as defined on this website, you have to close the gap after lesson 40 till you reach 20/20. (In your case even 30/30)

That is not true, a lot of people like cb and his reference on youtube K1OIK hardly or not copy 20 wpm. Remember the USA FCC that extra licence requirement was 20 wpm. That was obviously a real barrier.

kYou can't buy proficiency and you want it right now, just lie a child, no perseverance No NOW.

Not so nowadays, because the obviously objection to requirments by the lazy masses, they always win from requirements that only willingfull and dedicated people are able to meet.

The statement "Accuracy is more important than speed"

When you want to increase your speed you have to try to copy a speed that you are not comfortable with, in order to force your brain to adapt to a higher speed.

That was the way I did it.


Posted: 2019-02-21 14:04
Hello
I want to learn the speed 80. How do I have to set the CW parameters correctly? Is this 16 & 16?
thanks for your answer.
Alexander (HB9FDT)


Posted: 2019-02-21 17:35
HB9FDT:
Hello
I want to learn the speed 80. How do I have to set the CW parameters correctly? Is this 16 & 16?
thanks for your answer.
Alexander (HB9FDT)


Yup 16/16 if that's what you want.

Based on the two standard 5 character words "Paris" and "codex" and their dot-dash-ratio, the WPM/CPM factor has been calculated as 5

so 80 / 5 = 16wpm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code#Speed_in_words_per_minute

https://www.qsl.net/dk5ke/cwtest.html

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morsezeichen

etc

enjoy anyway . .

cb

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