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LCWO Discussion Forum [Atom LCWO Forum Feed]

This is a simple discussion forum for LCWO users. Feel free to use it for any kind of discussion related to this website.

Thread: Type or Pen

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AuthorText


Posted: 2018-10-12 01:03
After a few weeks using phone apps (KMT etc) I'm trying LCWO but having difficulty entering the characters, there seems to be some "writers block" and a huge difference between copying down with pen and paper of typing on a key board. Has anyone else found this, or have any comments or advice? BTW I cannot "type", I two finger "peck" at a decent speed.


Posted: 2018-10-18 17:47
Yes, I agree. I can copy much quicker on paper than typing. Ialso feel that I am only matching the sound to a key, not matching the sound to a letter.


Posted: 2018-11-02 13:16
It differs for me from time to time. Since I typically type much faster than I write by hand, I normally feel very comfortable typing CW code. But as soon as I get stuck, I kind of get lost in the input field. That works much better on 5-group paper forms.

And I partially have the same problem KE7IUP describes: When I introduced new characters with MorseMachine directly on the keyboard, I connected them with their positions, not with their meanings. As a result, I now confuse J and B quite often (or try to sort them out by remembering their keyboard position, that is).

Also, I find out that writing in CAPITAL letters works better for me when I handwrite the excercises.

Anyhow – it's getting forward. 22/7 after 2 months and a first DX QSO (Germany-US) yesterday on 20m!

73 de DG2FDD


Posted: 2018-11-04 14:38
You SHOULD learn writing on aper, That is because you are dependent of having a keyboard at hand when receiving Morse code. That should be a severe objection. The advantage of Morse code is that yoy can receive it everywhere without additional aids.

However on this website it is necessary to type the received code in in order to get a grading and to learn it.

Solution: Do 10 one minute exercises by writing, and only type over (copy) your results one out of 10 exercises, in order to get a score.


Posted: 2018-11-07 20:30
I am glad to see this discussion as I too am confused about whether or not I will be able to hand-write the letters ("copy by hand" I guess would be the terminology?) after typing these lessons. For now I am only on lesson 5 and only am typing but I know I'd better get to copying by hand as well.


Posted: 2018-11-08 06:26
I too started associating the sound with a position on the key board. I am going to try copying on paper and then entering the result for score. Good idea.


Posted: 2019-08-31 09:06
Interesting point. It feels as if they use different parts of the brain. The Morse Machine obviously requires keyboard input and jrsaw27 that it feels that one is matching the sound to a spatial location where the key is before one knows what the letter actually is. But I also use litscape.com to generate words (based on all the letters I have covered so far 16/40) then paste about 250 words into 'Convert text to CW' and download the file as mp3 & practice listening & writing whilst I am cooling down after a swim. At first writing was difficult but after a while it got better. However I am struggling to get my Morse Machine response much above 5wpm.


Posted: 2019-08-31 16:38
As said recently elsewhere, Morse machine is a tool to learn the characters. It is very helpful at higher numbered lessons because the one minute exercises at 5 wpm, do have only 40 characters or the like, so chance of getting exercised in last learned set of letters is too low.

Furthermore with Morse machine you get the next character AFTER you typed in the one heard, so you never obtain a higher speed, than your reaction speed i.e. completed sound ==> type in.

As said above by a previous posting of my hand, it is important that you write down what you hear.


Posted: 2019-09-02 15:26
I found that it took too long to write the letters down, so I've been using a modified version of Tee-line Shorthand (from back-in-the-day).

This seems to be working but I'm concerned that I'm associating the sound with a symbol (rather than a letter), albeit a symbol based on the letter. I wonder if this is storing up trouble for later, when I need to listen to entire words...

Does anyone else find writing capital letters at speed to be difficult?


Posted: 2019-09-02 19:51
writing capitals the military way, was used up to 17 wpm for coded messages.
It was necessary because human decoders of encrypted code groups were other people that got the written down text on their desk.

When you decode plain text, CW abbreviations, Q-code, and call signs, there is not any need to learn short hand.

Short hand is only used for championships, often it is personally designed. That is because after the by the guy/gal recorded transmission in his/her shorthand on paper, he/she obtains time to translate his/her shorthand on paper in by other people readable text (latin characters), with normal written figures and characters.

Don't bother about that, when you finally are able to record name QTH and callsign, repeated twice, with 25 wpm, in your writing speed, you are all sat. This speed will even qualify you for the HSC (High Speed Club)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=shorthand+cw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80oHE0J744c

It turns out to be possible to copy 280 thru 300 random characters per minute reliably with that method.




Posted: 2019-09-03 10:06
Okay, brushupCW, thanks for that advice. I'm only at 10 wpm so I should be able to write capitals at that speed, and even at 15 wpm (which is what I'm eventually aiming for).


Posted: 2019-09-03 20:10
I'm new so exploring the buttons. I've found that clicking on "Check Results" twice reveals the sent text - so you can manually check against what has been written down.


Posted: 2019-09-30 20:05
Good evening all,
very nice topic, it has been puzzling me for months. I've reached lesson 37/40 on 23/23 speed but, dear my, I'm copying it only on keyboard. When I realized my error, I tried to check my ability to copy on paper. Result: complete failure. I immediately started lowering the speed, down to just 3/1 where I could hardly copy any character. A complete parallel universe, like I haven't learned anything yet! I then decided to just finish up the complete set of 40 lessons on keyboard and then persuade copying on paper from scratch.
How does it seem to you as a remedy?

Please advice!
73


Posted: 2019-09-30 21:09
sv1qfm:
Good evening all,
very nice topic, it has been puzzling me for months. I've reached lesson 37/40 on 23/23 speed but, dear my, I'm copying it only on keyboard. When I realized my error, I tried to check my ability to copy on paper. Result: complete failure. I immediately started lowering the speed, down to just 3/1 where I could hardly copy any character. A complete parallel universe, like I haven't learned anything yet! I then decided to just finish up the complete set of 40 lessons on keyboard and then persuade copying on paper from scratch.
How does it seem to you as a remedy?

Please advice!
73


If you listen to words without writing anything down at all at 23/23 ,can you understand the text ??

Going directly via a keyboard is ok if you can type without thinking about it - so you are concentrating on decoding the morse - else you might just make a strong link between code letter and key.

You are ( probably ) not going to be a professional morse radio operator, taking down written ot typed messages to pass on, to the Captain or the customer
so
for Ham radio you only need

Call Sign
OP name
QTH
etc written down.

The rest is chit chat . . .

cb






Posted: 2019-10-01 19:06
cb:

If you listen to words without writing anything down at all at 23/23 ,can you understand the text ??


No, not at all, I'm afraid... Whenever I have heard words on air I try to momentarily memorize
them and then one by one decode it in my brain, but this is a very slow process so I'm losing the last letters of the word.

cb:

Going directly via a keyboard is ok if you can type without thinking about it - so you are concentrating on decoding the morse - else you might just make a strong link between code letter and key.


Yes, I very often catch myself thinking of things irrelative (family issues, job issues etc.) to the code while practicing as if I'm trying to "dodge" the task that has been assigned to me, while in the same time, my fingers are typing the associated key on the keyboard. Maybe this has to do with my "attention deficit hyperactivity disorder" (ADHD).

cb:

You are ( probably ) not going to be a professional morse radio operator, taking down written ot typed messages to pass on, to the Captain or the customer
so
for Ham radio you only need

Call Sign
OP name
QTH
etc written down.

The rest is chit chat . . .

cb


Yes, I am wondering about it very often: "why do I need to copy random code, since I only need the stuff just to conduct a QSO? In the end, I'm not a WWII army cryptographer / decoder ;)"
Thanks for your advice!
73


Posted: 2019-10-01 23:04
Looks like you've been going since 2012 -so you have some staying power.

You learn by decoding lots of code so that by repetition it becomes automatic.

note the "decoding lots of code" hear morse - letter pops up as if from nowhere.


For some people "lots of code" seems to be a few weeks worth.

For the rest of us it is a significantly longer period of time.

so

I think if I was you I'd try 23/5 and run through all the lessons.

If you have problems concentrating, try visualizing ( picturing ) the letters as you decode them.

Write down don't type. Every so often enter the text to see if you hit 90%

If you find you can go 23/10 then do that.


Make up some mp3 files for your cellphone and listen for a few mins ( earbuds would be good ) when on the train/bus/sheltering from a shower etc

see if it helps at all

don't give up

persistance pays - it would be nice if you understand the chit chat "WX hr fb = HW? = hr QRM x XYL" etc

cb


Posted: 2019-10-02 03:55
Copying on a keyboard and writing are definitely is two different skills. I originally learned to copy code by hand but then joined the Navy and was sent to school to "learn" to copy code because I did so well on the code aptitude test. I wonder why? We copied on a typewriter (pre PC days). When we got to 8 wpm speed I really had a struggle because I hadn't yet learned to associate the letter sound with the keyboard key position, I was still hearing the letter, recognizing what it was, then remembering where the letter was on the keyboard, then typing it. By this time those in the class that came in not knowing code or how to touch-type were not even recognizing the letter, just simply hearing the letter and hitting the corresponding key without really identifying the letter.


Posted: 2019-10-02 08:46
Well, sv1qfm, the good news is that, basically, you know most of morse code quite well (lesson 37 at 23wpm is nice!) but are limited in the modalities of output (keyboard alone).

Your brain is however already able to parse morse characters and identify them, instead of hearing a long stream of meaningless sound. This is the key.

My suggestion would be, when you have finished the lessons, instead of moving from one crutch to the other, from keyboard to pencil, try just listening to large blocks of text at 23 wpm and causing the letters to appear on the whiteboard of your mind, viewing morse code as a language.

We're talking 1hr/ day, at least, in several blocks of 15 mns.

You should start by catching individual letters and guess at the meaning of 2 letter words ("at", "by", "is"), then three letter words ("and") and eventually you will be adding these building block to identify long words .

With long words focus on prefixes ("pre", "pro"), suffixes ("ed", "ing") and reduplication in the word ("cc", "ss" "pp") which is common in English, what is in between will take care of itself quite rapidly.

Keep your mind loose, relaxed but concentrated.

These would be my humble suggestions!



Posted: 2019-10-02 21:24
ID - ID This sounds like a good suggestion. I have often thought about listening and figuring out the meaning. In learning to read finger spelling, I eventually learned to read the shape of the word on the fingers instead of reading each individual letter. Thanks for the suggestion.


Posted: 2019-10-03 10:21
The key for training in any complex skill is to break it up into discrete components and train separately in each. In this case:

1.listening and identifying morse characters mentally is one skill

2. transcribing these characters (by whatever means) is another skill

Item 1 is the difficult one when one starts learning morse.

Transcribing at anything above 25wpm calls for writing behind (at least for me). If one is able to identify the characters mentally and keep them in mind, this is not very difficult, since we have been trained to write (or type, in my case) from an early age.

After training in the individual, discrete parts of the skill one wishes to acquire, one links them together.


Posted: 2019-10-03 11:43
cb:
Looks like you've been going since 2012 -so you have some staying power.


Back then, I had just signed up then and did only a few copying in the first lesson, I had just acquired my license, I didn't find (initially) any particular interest and then abandoned it since then. My systematic practicing on cw started on June '18, till now, every day, 1/2 - 1 h per day, except extraordinary situations. I think I'm going fine for now, copying variable length of words and variable acoustic frequency. The real world though waits still there for proving.

ID:

We're talking 1hr/ day, at least, in several blocks of 15 mns.

You should start by catching individual letters and guess at the meaning of 2 letter words ("at", "by", "is"), then three letter words ("and") and eventually you will be adding these building block to identify long words .

With long words focus on prefixes ("pre", "pro"), suffixes ("ed", "ing") and reduplication in the word ("cc", "ss" "pp") which is common in English, what is in between will take care of itself quite rapidly.

Keep your mind loose, relaxed but concentrated.

These would be my humble suggestions!



Thanks ID - ID. My practicing sessions are now set at 4 min.

Yes, after more than a year of practicing, I can agree that cw is ome more language, like so many other mens' languages.

I've also found aspects I didn't know of myself: I notice that my "concentration tidal waves" [sic] come and go at a period of 1 - 1,5 mins, that is, if I start copying, I'll become twice absent minded in a session, more or less.

Second and more important: as I suspected, practicing immediately after waking up is bad choice. I never make it. My brain works better in the midday / afternoon.

Being nervous, angry, troubled or very tired is a no-go. In my limited daytime schedule, I struggle to find at least half an hour without obligations or children caring in a quiet corner of our limited house space.




Posted: 2019-10-04 03:47
If you click on the "HOME" (tab/button/WORD) you will see your progress. In that progress area statistics are located. Pay attention to the "read" statistics. DO YOU NOTICE A DIFFERENCE IN SPEED OVER WHAT YOU HAVE YOUR LESSON SPEED SET TO?

I do and have created a separate thread to discuss this speed discrepancy. When it is approved it will be helpful for all to weigh in on the topic. :-)


Posted: 2019-10-04 03:50
I made a SIGNIFICANT ERROR. I mentioned the "HOME" area when I should have stated after taking a lesson there are statistics. The home area has nothing to do with my observation. (Brain Scramble?)


Posted: 2019-10-05 01:00
[quote=Monthow] [...] Pay attention to the "read" statistics. DO YOU NOTICE A DIFFERENCE IN SPEED OVER WHAT YOU HAVE YOUR LESSON SPEED SET TO?

)[/quote]

Your question is still unclear but ubderstood. You mean, I suppose, "real" instead of "read"

That speed after the completion of a lesson is the number of transmitted characters divided by the time in minutes and divided by 5 to convert from characters per minute to words per minute.

So 75 characters in one minute speed 20/10 is reported as 15 wpm.

When you have lesson speed 20/10 this means that the character and word spaces are doubled in nominal duration. Characters 20 wpm and spaces 10 wpm.

Words per minute (20 in this case, is above that calculated for plain English text. The word PARIS is the standard for that.

Random characters however are slower in transmission, lesson dependent. When you arrive at the complete A..Z characterset and you have 5 long groups of random characters you produce less characters per minute compared with plain English text.

That is because the characters in plain text have not an equal probability of appearance in plain text. As a rule: The characters with higher occurence, like E, have the shortest code.

Actually 20/20 wpm 5 long random code groups of 20 wpm yield only 16 groups per minute.

HH



Posted: 2019-10-10 21:50
Howdy all, here is my problem.
I've been doing CW for two years now.
I just joined became a member of the CW OPs group a few months ago.
I can copy 27 wpm writing it on paper and head copying most of it. I like ragchewing on air.
But I thought I would try and learn to copy on the keyboard since I can't write any faster than high twenties wpm. But I find that I can only copy about 15 wpm on the keyboard even though I can type up over 50 wpm at work.
I can type fast, and I can copy CW handwritten at 27 or so, but can't copy on the keyboard above 15. It's like starting over, I assume it gets better. I've read several webpages where the QRQ guys use a keyboard.

Good luck to all of us wherever we are in our learning curve.


Posted: 2019-10-11 07:20
I just started today with two lessons. I ran across the same thing; I can copy the code well enough and I can type well, but I normally write the code I copy rather than type it. Typing the code is strangely hard for me. So, I dispensed with the keyboard and copied on paper. Reading the posts above, I discovered you can click the "check results" button twice to show the sent text so that you can check your hand written code.

I think that is the best way to go. As was also said before in this thread, you usually don't use a keyboard when listening to code on a radio, so writing it on paper as you practice makes more sense.

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