[LCWO LOGO]  

Login

User name:
Password:


Language
Български Português brasileiro
Bosanski Català
繁體中文 Česky
Dansk Deutsch
English Español
Suomi Français
Ελληνικά Hrvatski
Magyar Italiano
日本語 Bahasa Melayu
Nederlands Norsk
Polski Português
Română Русский
සිංහල Slovenščina
Srpski Svenska
ภาษาไทย Türkçe
Українська 简体中文

Who is online? (16)


LCWO Discussion Forum [Atom LCWO Forum Feed]

This is a simple discussion forum for LCWO users. Feel free to use it for any kind of discussion related to this website.

Thread: Again the beginners question on speed practice

Back to the Forum

AuthorText


Posted: 2015-03-30 12:36
Hi,
so far I learned the 40 lessons with 25/5, but still having a lookup-table in my mind to sort out the letters and numbers - which is not what I want.

Thats why I started again at lesson 2 with 25/12 to really copy with speed.

The problem I face is, that I am able to distinguish the letters in my mind, but I cannot react so fast to write down the letter nor hack it into the keyboard - so I am not able to record the copied letters for later verfification.

How did you do that, when practicing with higher speeds ?

Any recommendation is appreciated !

73 de db2hw pse k


Posted: 2015-03-30 17:13
Hello Holger,

you could try to use the http://lcwo.net/morsemachine until you're fast enough with the keyboard.

Probably you're fast enough anyway. You can check that by asking somebody to tell you random letters (not morse but spoken), and trying to type them in. If that's no problem for you, then the morse decoding is what slows you down. It will improve with practice.

Another possibility is to do the http://lcwo.net/wordtraining . Listen at any speed until you have read the complete word, and then type it in.

73 -- Georg


Posted: 2015-03-30 20:23
Thanks Georg,
how did you practice speedy codes - by keyboard or by writing it down on paper ?

I guess the keyboard might be the faster copy method - what is your personal experience ?

73 de db2hw pse k


Posted: 2015-03-30 20:35
Well,
the test Georg recommended showed clearly that I have to practise more CW. The copy-speed with spoken letters (thanx to my XYL) is much faster than with CW.

Starting again with 25/10 on lesson 1 ......


Posted: 2015-03-31 10:35
Hello Holger,

I practice only via mind and/or keyboard.

73 -- Georg


Posted: 2015-03-31 12:08
Good to see that I am not the only one. I read the Koch research and moved to that approach. Full speed no spaces. But at 25/25 I can not write the letters down on paper and I am not that fast with the keyboard. Koch mentions that the learning speed needs to be above 10wpm. You do not have to go for 25wpm to learn. So I went to 15/15wpm, that is the speed where I am able to write down the characters. I started at lesson 1, and guess what, my speed went up very fast. Do not continue to the next lesson at 90% but when you are able to write down the character without thinking.

That helped me a lot
Hope it works for you too.
Regards 73 de PA3JEM, Johan


Posted: 2015-03-31 21:06
Hi,
thanks Johan and Georg for sharing your experience on how to copy and practice.
I actually started yesterday with the same approach as Johan mentioned, with 15/15 at lesson 2. Lets see how this works out !

73 de db2hw, Holger


Posted: 2015-04-03 11:34
Good luck Holger,

I am on air now, very carefully, I do not want to frustrate other HAMs with my speed. But with the special stations it works fine. We could setup a sked Holger.


Posted: 2015-04-03 14:43
I have an addition to what I do and learn Holger,

I am also using the codegroups. The starting characters is what you exercise most, like the M and K. But the last characters you practice least. So because I know the characters and I want to gain speed I made code groups and I select the characters in the reverse way, like the 6 and X

hope to here you soon, you are almost there. Keep up the good work Holger. Its really, really, really fun.

Johan


Posted: 2015-04-06 15:55
Hi Johan,
thanks for your motivation and your recommendations. It is really fun because I see progress in speed-copying, but it is hard work.

I am still struggling with typing the letters in the keyboard fast enough and I found that my maximum speed is 18/10 or 15/15.

Another obstacle is, when I type in a letter wrongly (e.g I copied a "k" and typed a "u") I am out of any sync. and want to correct it immediately (like a reflex). Ignoration of errors and continuing copy of the following letters is something I have to learn.

As mentioned above, there is still progress.

What I do in addition to "lcwo.net", is to listen to CW-radio daily when I commute to and from my QRL. It is slow speed (5wpm) for the first lections, but it helps to copy words and sentences in mind. They are found on:
"http://dm3da.tuxomania.net/index.html"
The CW-plays are entirely in german, so it might not help much for non-german speakers.
The software ebook2cw translates text to cw.

Johan, what "special stations" do you mean in your previous post, and on what bands are you QRV ?

I am QRV on 40m, 20m at the moment (still working on my antenna tuner to match all other bands).
I do not yet have a key or paddle, but when I have this equipment available I would like to come back to you for a sked.

73 de db2hw




Posted: 2015-04-06 15:59
Ah Johan,
one more question on your training prodcedure.
Did you go the full 5 minutes in each lection ?

5 Minutes at the personal speed-limit is really exhausting.....


Posted: 2015-04-07 13:39
Hi Holger,

I am not able to blind type so I write things down (just pen and paper), but 15/15 is the limit, I can't do any faster. Yes I can but then I can't read it, small discrepancy.

I have the same problem when I get the right letter but write the wrong one and get out of sync completely and mis a whole word. It is something that you have to learn and by the lessons you have to, so you learn this automatically. In real life you have to do this also. To keep it close to home. When I listen to the Germans I get the ö and ü, which is not in our alphabet but you have to learn to ignore them and go on with the next character.

The Koch research learns us that the 5wpm is not a good idea. But if it works for you, do it.

Special stations are like now R120xx or xx90IARU, but there are also a lot of other stations, who only give "599 73 TU". I found out that I learn to listen to my call and theirs and get some feeling about the coding, that is what I haven't learned yet. Before I go On-Air, I write down what I have to code. I can not do this out of my head yet.

I do the lessons in 1 minute sessions else my hands cramp from writing and I repeat them until I am able to write down the character without thinking.

Well a lot if information from my end.
Go on air as soon as possible Holger, you have done the alphabet. Get a radio HAM close to you and let him send sentences verify via skype or an other band on phone.

regards, 73
PA3JEM, Johan


Posted: 2015-04-08 03:30
I gotta say, this website really helps, ALOT! I'm getting ready to take my tech exam in a few days and wanted to really learn CW.


Posted: 2015-04-08 06:43
The characters in the low speed of 5 ppm lose their sonority. Try to listen in 10 or 12 PPM. Try the following method: supposing that you is receiving the KMMKK series. By listening the first letter K, do not write on paper and keep it in your mind. By listening the second letter M, write on paper the first letter K and save the second letter M in your mind, and so on.


Posted: 2015-04-08 08:35
Great Johan and PY2FCL,
the above discussions gives me a good feeling about my actual state in CW training and how to proceed and what to expect !

Your experiences give me confidence in what and how I am doing is good and it is also good to hear that others facing the same difficulties as I do.

A question to PY2FCL for data:
What is the maximum speed you can copy by using the keyboard or the paper/pen ?


Posted: 2015-04-08 19:27
i started all over again. because i was thinking to much (speed to slow). now i'm testing with 15/15.


Posted: 2015-04-08 20:34
Pen and paper is a limiter for higher speeds. I do not use paper / pen.
I train more words and texts. Words, I get to 60ppm. Texts, come to 17.3 PPM real. Click on "best score" search for PY2FCL.


Posted: 2015-04-09 01:13
Hi All. Like some others, I am glad to hear writing the code is a challenge. I have developed a bit of a shorthand to record the letters especially those with more than one or two strokes. That seems to help and I can easily decipher what I have written.
73


Posted: 2015-04-10 21:18
tvkahiker and other beginners, I hope "a bit of shorthand to write letters especially those with more than one or two blows" is not by dots and dashes. Open workbook in http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/20577024/960492790/name/CURSO+CW+PY2FCL.dotx


Posted: 2015-04-11 02:02
Hi PY2FCL - no my shorthand resembles the letters as closely as possible without the additional strokes. I agree writing dots and dashes would defeat the purpose. 73


Posted: 2015-05-07 17:56
我是直接在紙上寫,然後打上去的。


Posted: 2015-05-08 01:06
☞ ⚢✄☭✌ ৳♬♬♩♫♬♩ ✈✆☎☺☮ ❒




♣❤✎ ☆₰ ﷼㍐ ∰ ☃☂⁂☼ ⌘✈☹ ☜


✖✖✖


Posted: 2015-05-08 19:16
Sorry, Cesare, but don't understand your 2015-05-07 comments.
Got this from Google Translate:
"Cesare - ten years in the Ice"
"I was directly on paper, and then play up."


Posted: 2015-05-17 16:42
test:
Sorry, Cesare, but don't understand your 2015-05-07 comments.
Got this from Google Translate:
"Cesare - ten years in the Ice"
"I was directly on paper, and then play up."


I am a Chinese.So it maybe bring a little change to Google translate.(Sorry.My English is not good.) I mean when I hear the sound I will just write them down on paper,then I copy them with the keyboard.





Posted: 2015-12-20 20:38
I think many of you have misunderstood exactly how the Koch method works.

First you have a character speed and then the character spacing. character speed is the most important while character spacing is pretty much irrelevant during the random character phase.

As long as you keep the Character speed at 15 wpm and above you will be fine, the idea here is not to learn the dits and dahs but to hear a sound that creates a letter.

There is nothing wrong with learning random characters at 25/5 trying to learn to copy random characters at a character spacing of more then 10 wpm is insane and as the military has proven doesn't work very well.

Back in the day the military didn't start increasing the word speed until they started teaching you actual words. At that point you learn to hear a whole word the same way you learned to hear individual characters.

In other words you learn to hear a whole word not the individual letters which make up the word.

Seems to me many of you are actually trying to learn to copy words letter by letter and that's really going to screw up your hi speed copy ability as you;l end up hitting a brick wall.

Normally in real world QSO's the only thing you need to copy letter by letter is the call sign of the station you are working, that's why it's normally given several times, because you are copying the call sign letter by letter. In a qso anything that is expected to be copied letter by letter is normally given 3 times for example grid squares and such.

In an actual QSO once you start the qso you stop decoding individual letters in your head and instead start to hear individual words as individual words have their own sound just like individual characters do.

The hardest part of learning CW is making it past the Koch random letter stage, Once you move onto words it should get much faster as now you can now start increasing your word speed.

Do you really think Hi speed CW ops doing 60+ words per min in rag chew QSO's are actually copying individual letters and spelling out words in their heads LOL.... No way they don't hear the word House spelled out as H O U S E no way they hear all the characters together that form the the cw sound that says house..

Also in a real QSO there is the anticipatory factor where you have a good idea of what the next word is actually going to be or if you miss a word the next word fills in the blanks.

The bottom line is copying random characters at any speed greater than 20/10 is very hard and you really don't gain much from doing it. If you can copy random characters at 15/5 and above then it's really time to move onto learning how to copy whole words.


Posted: 2015-12-25 12:16
Hello,

im a bloody newbie to ce and trying to get along with the koch method. I did about 40 runs with lection 1 at 15/15 and i am still not even able to copy down the correct grouping form of 5 chars/group. It takes about 15s and i am completely out of sync and don´t get into the stream again. So most of my runs can´t even be rated because the program tells me the group structure is wrong. The few times i could complete a 1 minute run my failure rate was about 35%. Do i make something wrong or do i just proceed with lection 1 no matter how long it will take?


Posted: 2015-12-26 10:16
I made a mistake in my last posting. My error rate is about 60%, not 30%. So far, during the runs i don´t copy a single of those three characters. This is more randomly typing than copying. With 3 characters the chances are 33% to hit the right one and this gives a error rate of about 66% -to which i am close to.
I think i need a hint how to LEARN the characters before doing the runs because just sitting before my keyboard and typing random characters don´t lead me any further. So how should i learn the characters? Should i listen to the streams for u,k,m with closed eyes and trying to memorize them or better looking on the character while listening to it? I also tried listening and simultaneously typing it on the keyboard. But so far nothing seems to work..


Posted: 2015-12-26 14:58


Here is a rough translation of Snr Ramos-Jimenez's posting into "reality", with a hint at the end . .

Original posting
----------------
im a bloody newbie to ce and trying to get along with the koch method.

Translation
-----------
I am yet another a fresh faced and wildly enthusiatic beginner to More Code,
keen to do my part to enhance the Human Race's ability to communicate person to person, even in difficult circumstances
and hoping to have an enjoyable time building up an extra skill

i.e. I am determined to learn both receiveing and sending to a good level of proficiency
and am keenly looking forward to a measurable improvement rate as a rewards for all my hard work and investment of my valuable spare time . . .

I have decided to try out the "Koch" methodology first off guessing that starting is much much better than just talking about it . . .



Original Posting
----------------
I did about 40 runs with lection 1 at 15/15

Translation
-----------
To check if I have been born already proficiant in Morse or to cover the possibility that I have acidentally picked it up already in my sleep,
I have started decoding random morse at a speed of 15/15 to see how I get on . . . .



Original Posting
----------------

and i am still not even able to copy down the correct grouping form of 5 chars/group.

Translation
-----------

. . . and I now have realised that I haven't been born already knowing Morse Code . . . Ah . . well . . . . onwards . . .




Original Posting
----------------

It takes about 15s and i am completely out of sync and don´t get into the stream again.




Translate
---------

. . . nor have I picked it up accidentally whilst asleep . . . or by a process of "osmosis" . . . .



Original Posting
----------------

So most of my runs can´t even be rated because the program tells me the group structure is wrong.


Translate
---------

Help-fully if disconcertingly, Fabian's assessment code is noticing that 15/15 is too fast for me just yet and is telling me how many letters have wizzed past whilst I was proceeding at my own speed




Original Posting
----------------

The few times i could complete a 1 minute run my failure rate was about 35%.

I made a mistake in my last posting. My error rate is about 60%, not 30%.


Translation
-----------


YIPEEE
I seem to be doing quite well, even with the speed set FAR TOO HIGH and have actually been getting 30% to 40% correct before I "melt my brain, once again"





Original Posting
----------------

Do I make something wrong or do i just proceed with lection 1 no matter how long it will take?


Translation
-----------

Am I wrong to not be born fully proficiant at Morse Code, or am I wrong to have the speed set FAR TOO HIGH ???





Original Posting
----------------

So how should i learn the characters? Should i listen to the streams for u,k,m with closed eyes and trying to memorize them or better looking on the character while listening to it? I also tried listening and simultaneously typing it on the keyboard. But so far nothing seems to work..


Translate
---------

Hmmmmmmmm . . . This is more difficult than I thought it would be.

I was expecting it to be like learning to drive - every day I see a noticable improvement which:-
1/ makes me feel good
2/ really boosts my morale
3/ sets me up for the next lesson




Possibly helpful hints YMMV
----------------------

There are a few things which I think that normal people need to get right when learning to decode morse.


Make sure you choose an audio frequency at which your ears can easily pick up AND differentiate the sound of each character . . .
you may find s few Hz up or down makes a difference.


Make sure there is NO background noise


Make sure the volume level is quiet enough that you aren't overloading your ears- else you will get tired
but loud enough that you don't have to concentrate to hear - else you will be listening instead of decoding


Make sure that your speaker / phones are comfortable and aren't introducing any distortion


Choose 10-15 cpm for the character speed but leave a large gap between them so you have time to recognise each character without rushing


If you go too fast - your brain will just stop hearing anything and the lesson time will be wasted


Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat


Hum code to your self when you have a few minutes spare
30 seconds of listening to letters on your from your cell phone 5 times a day is V probably better than one long session . . .
NOTE just thinking of the sounds won't "cut the mustard" - you have to hear it.


STOP worrying about scores just yet. Concentrate on learning - then speed up


It's useful to listed to ALL the letters randomly xmitted and just pick out the ones you have learned "up to now"


Don't worry too much about H and 5 & B and 6 etc just yet


Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat


Good luck, and don't ever give up . . .

cb


Posted: 2015-12-26 17:42
Thank you so much! Seems to me you are used on giving motivating hints, arn't you? I will repeat, repeat, repeat until i can unterstand...
73,
Andres


Posted: 2016-02-01 19:41
CaptBligh, thanks for your input. It confirms what I was assuming. I'm trying to think of morse code as a language and I certainly don't hear words in English as individual letters. Learning the alphabet makes sense, but like you pointed out, I follow a lot of english with context and putting together things with expectations when I'm listening to someone talk really fast.

Also, thanks for pointing out that learning the alphabet is just the beginning. It seems like I've seen subtle suggestions that the alphabet gets you just about done, but it certainly seems like that's just the beginning.

Anyway, appreciate your thoughts from the other side.

Back to the Forum

You must be logged in to post a message.

$Id: forum.php 62 2015-01-12 17:34:44Z fabian $